Author Topic: Enforcement spot  (Read 1006 times)

Offline Delta51

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Enforcement spot
« on: August 29, 2017, 11:33:40 PM »
1st and 10, from own 30 yd line.
A10 drops back to pass, and at the 20 yd line, A10 has his facemask pulled and twisted by B55, but he is not tackled.
He then starts up the field, but is hit and fumbles at his own 25 yd line, where the ball is:

(1) recovered by B at the 28 and downed there
(2) recovered by A10 at the 28 and downed there
(3) recovered by A10 at the 28 and he advances to the 35 and is downed there.

I'm having a hard time with the enforcement spot. Since the fumble is behind the neutral zone, are all of these scenarios enforced from the previous spot?

Thanks


Offline Rulesman

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2017, 01:34:40 AM »
Running play. In Federation rules, the basic spot is the end of the run. Fouls by B behind the basic spot are enforced from the spot of the foul. If A accepts the penalty (which they will in scenario 1, and should in both scenarios 2 and 3), it will be 1/10 for A from the A35.

NCAA would enforce from the previous spot.
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Online Ump33

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2017, 06:32:35 AM »
1st and 10, from own 30 yd line.
A10 drops back to pass, and at the 20 yd line, A10 has his facemask pulled and twisted by B55, but he is not tackled.
He then starts up the field, but is hit and fumbles at his own 25 yd line, where the ball is:

(1) recovered by B at the 28 and downed there
(2) recovered by A10 at the 28 and downed there
(3) recovered by A10 at the 28 and he advances to the 35 and is downed there.

I'm having a hard time with the enforcement spot. Since the fumble is behind the neutral zone, are all of these scenarios enforced from the previous spot?

Thanks
Yes, you are correct in your question. Since the fumble happened behind the NZ, it is a Loose Ball Play per 10-3-1c.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2017, 07:28:09 AM »
1st and 10, from own 30 yd line.
A10 drops back to pass, and at the 20 yd line, A10 has his facemask pulled and twisted by B55, but he is not tackled.
He then starts up the field, but is hit and fumbles at his own 25 yd line, where the ball is:

(1) recovered by B at the 28 and downed there
(2) recovered by A10 at the 28 and downed there
(3) recovered by A10 at the 28 and he advances to the 35 and is downed there.

I'm having a hard time with the enforcement spot. Since the fumble is behind the neutral zone, are all of these scenarios enforced from the previous spot?

Thanks

No.  Rulesman got it right.  It is a matter of did the foul happen during the loose ball or during the running play.  Scenario:  1 and 10 from the A20.  QB A1 drops back and is under heavy rush.  He is scrambling when B2 grabs and twists the facemask at the A2 yd line.  QB A1:
     a) is tackled at the A2 or
     b) fumbles at the A2 and the ball goes OOB at the A2

In (a), the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul and in (b) the penalty is enforced from the previous spot since that is considered a loose ball play.

If a QB or RB is ever grabbed by the facemask behind the line of scrimmage and they fumble the ball, it works in their favor.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Online Ump33

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2017, 07:50:40 AM »
No.  Rulesman got it right.  It is a matter of did the foul happen during the loose ball or during the running play.  Scenario:  1 and 10 from the A20.  QB A1 drops back and is under heavy rush.  He is scrambling when B2 grabs and twists the facemask at the A2 yd line.  QB A1:
     a) is tackled at the A2 or
     b) fumbles at the A2 and the ball goes OOB at the A2

In (a), the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul and in (b) the penalty is enforced from the previous spot since that is considered a loose ball play.

If a QB or RB is ever grabbed by the facemask behind the line of scrimmage and they fumble the ball, it works in their favor.
Section 3 Types Of Play
10-3-1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
Note: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

Offline Delta51

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2017, 09:03:12 AM »
Running play. In Federation rules, the basic spot is the end of the run. Fouls by B behind the basic spot are enforced from the spot of the foul. If A accepts the penalty (which they will in scenario 1, and should in both scenarios 2 and 3), it will be 1/10 for A from the A35.

NCAA would enforce from the previous spot.
Why would it be 1/10 from 35?
Fouls by A behind the basic spot are "spot" fouls.
I thought fouls by B were either enforced from previous spot or end of run.

Offline VA Official

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2017, 09:10:50 AM »
Section 3 Types Of Play
10-3-1 . . . A loose-ball play is action during:
a. A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a.
b. A legal forward pass.
c. A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
Note: The run(s) which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

Ump is right here. A fumble behind the LOS is a loose ball play and all action prior to a loose ball play is enforced as a loose ball as well. If there was a defensive foul behind the LOS prior to a legal forward pass, where is the basic spot? The previous spot. Same thing applies here for this fumble. All fouls by the team not in possession (B in this case) are enforced from the basic spot.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 09:14:39 AM by VA Official »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2017, 09:13:35 AM »
It would be 1st and 10 from the 45 - 15 yards from the previous spot because, as Ump said, it is a loose ball play.

This is a nice example of why it's dangerous to rely on the "whatever hurts them most" shortcut for penalty enforcement.  In example 3 in the OP, the end of the run would "hurt the most" but is not the enforcement spot for a loose ball play.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2017, 09:21:20 AM »
Be careful, guys, on referring to fouls by B as "spot fouls" as their enforcement spot is either the end of the run (which may also be where the foul occurred if the runner was brought down by the facemask) or previous spot (if ball came loose behind LOS). Spot fouls occur if they are by A behind the basic spot. Rationale : the foul may have allowed A to advance further than it would have if the foul didn't occur.

Reminder : There is no need to beanbag a fumble behind the LOS, as a foul by B would have previous spot enforcement.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2017, 11:08:23 AM »
I sit corrected.  Thanks Ump
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Online CalhounLJ

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Enforcement spot
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2017, 12:50:03 PM »
So help me understand, if we have a foul and fumble behind the line, then no matter what happens next, the basic spot for that particular foul is previous spot? 


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Offline VA Official

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2017, 01:45:55 PM »
So help me understand, if we have a foul and fumble behind the line, then no matter what happens next, the basic spot for that particular foul is previous spot? 


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Correct, as long as the foul was before or during the loose ball.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Enforcement spot
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2017, 04:06:07 PM »
Looks like I'd be buying the adult beverages after the next game. That's what I get for trying to sort through penalty admin at 1:30 in the morning. It's a Tylenol PM night tonight!
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi