Author Topic: Motion: Legal or Illegal?  (Read 2642 times)

Offline ref4e

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Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« on: August 30, 2017, 09:06:19 PM »
Had this last Friday night...After a long gain, team A is lined up and in position and immediately after the U spots the ball, the linemen are set in a three point stance and snapper places hand on the ball.  After a couple seconds, I sound the ready.  But, just before the ready whistle, a slot back goes in motion parallel to the LOS and is in motion at the snap.

Here's the question...the entire team was set for a full second (or more) before the wingback went in motion, but the ready was not sounded until after he was in motion.   Is this legal motion, or does he have to wait on the whistle to go in motion?   7-2-6 and 7-2-7 do not address the ready for play whistle in relation to shifts and motion.

I've heard opinions both ways from fellow officials.   Need rule references!!

Offline edtude

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 07:19:56 AM »
Everything before you blowing the RFP is considered dead ball action is it not? My opinion the team was not set for 1 second before the snap.

Online Ump33

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 08:07:26 AM »
2-37 ... A rule is one of the groups of regulations which govern the game. A rule sometimes states what a player may do, but if there is no such statement for a given act (such as faking a kick), it is assumed that he may do what is not prohibited. In like manner, a rule sometimes states or implies that the ball is dead or that a foul is involved. If it does not, it is assumed that the ball is live and that no foul has occurred. If a foul is mentioned, it is assumed that it is not part of a double or multiple foul unless so stated or implied.

I'm inclined to let it go. Not much different than the following. A makes a first down just short of the goal line with 1 second left on the clock and no time outs. They quickly line up and are set before the ready. As soon as the whistle for the ready sounds, they snap the ball. Legal or not?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 09:30:59 AM »
In NYS it has been previously decided it is more practical and appropriate to simply shut such infractions down, immediately, and handle as Dead Ball fouls, rather than allow confusion and/or hesitation, on the part of other teammates and/or opponents to create unnecessary problems.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 12:56:21 PM »
A makes a first down just short of the goal line with 1 second left on the clock and no time outs. They quickly line up and are set before the ready. As soon as the whistle for the ready sounds, they snap the ball. Legal or not?

I think the better solution is to just end the game. Works best if the home team has the ball.

I would just announce to the crowd, 'By rule 7-2-6, all offensive players must be set for 1 full second before they are allowed to snap the ball. Since this is not possible, the game is over, by rule.' Then walk off the field high-fiving the other officials on a game well officiated.

 aWaRd

Seriously though, I've actually found an oddity here in the rule book where it's not clear (even though we know what we do):

Note that this rule actually states this:
7-2-6: After a huddle or shift, all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.

2-39: A shift is the action of one or more offensive players who, after a huddle or after taking set positions, move to a new set position before the ensuing snap.

If the offense is running a no-huddle, 7-2-6 does not apply. According to 2-39, a shift is NOT the action of going from one play to another.  A shift can only happen AFTER the players take set positions.

So, if the offense is running a no-huddle, what rule is violated when all the offensive players just run toward the line, and as soon as the snapper makes it to the ball, he snaps it without waiting for everyone to be motionless for 1 second?


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 05:29:15 PM »
I
I would just announce to the crowd, 'By rule 7-2-6, all offensive players must be set for 1 full second before they are allowed to snap the ball. Since this is not possible, the game is over, by rule.'
Seriously though, I've actually found an oddity here in the rule book where it's not clear (even though we know what we do):

Note that this rule actually states this:
7-2-6: After a huddle or shift, all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.

So, if the offense is running a no-huddle, what rule is violated when all the offensive players just run toward the line, and as soon as the snapper makes it to the ball, he snaps it without waiting for everyone to be motionless for 1 second?

You might consider NFHS 2-21; "Huddle", and how it's vagueness impacts the variables of 7-2-6.

Offline KDJBBBJ

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 06:40:48 PM »
It is all dead ball action before the snap. I think all provisions have been met the rules don't say set for one second after the ready for play.  Rule: 7-2-1 tells us everything that has to happen after the ready for play on a scrimmage down. I would let this and these plays go.



ART. 1 After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 10:09:00 PM »
ART. 1 After the ball is marked ready for play, each player of A who participated in the previous down and each substitute for A must have been, momentarily, between the 9-yard marks, before the snap.

But what about 7-2-6 requirement of a 1 second pause BY EVERYONE before a snap? NFHS 2-21: Defines a "Huddle" simply as 2 or more players of the same team "grouped together" before a down.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:16:30 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline WCFB

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2017, 11:28:02 PM »
As described by the OP, everything is legal. Since the OP said that all players were set for at least one second before the A player went in motion we've satisfied 7-2-6. The RFP has no bearing on the legality of a player in motion. All other provisions have been met, let this one go.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 07:45:11 AM »
Legal. Nothing in the "one second" provisions says "after the ready-for-play but before the snap".

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 08:35:32 AM »
As described by the OP, everything is legal. Since the OP said that all players were set for at least one second before the A player went in motion we've satisfied 7-2-6. The RFP has no bearing on the legality of a player in motion. All other provisions have been met, let this one go.

I agree.

What about if the offense is set, and a player is in motion before, during and after the RFP? Is this still ok?



Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 12:08:46 PM »
Are you really sure?  Are we searching for loopholes in the language of the rule, or in the execution of what the rule is trying to accomplish?

2-35 defines; "Ready for Play signifies the referee has signaled the ball may be put in play by a snap or free kick and the 25-second count is to begin."

Before the referee signals the RFP is ANYBODY actually "set" or is EVERYBODY simply standing around (some still, maybe some not) waiting for the signal that the ball has been officially declared "may be put in play"?  For the past 100+ years, we have all recognized, clearly and distinctly, the RFP signal as differentiating between milling around getting in position to play, and being READY to play.  Why would be want to add confusion to that?

Offline VA Official

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 12:27:46 PM »
Are you really sure?  Are we searching for loopholes in the language of the rule, or in the execution of what the rule is trying to accomplish?

2-35 defines; "Ready for Play signifies the referee has signaled the ball may be put in play by a snap or free kick and the 25-second count is to begin."

Before the referee signals the RFP is ANYBODY actually "set" or is EVERYBODY simply standing around (some still, maybe some not) waiting for the signal that the ball has been officially declared "may be put in play"?  For the past 100+ years, we have all recognized, clearly and distinctly, the RFP signal as differentiating between milling around getting in position to play, and being READY to play.  Why would be want to add confusion to that?

On the opposite side of this, can we really consider this a foul when the rule covering it does not say that it is one? For any foul, I want the full support of the rules behind me, and that's not the case here. The only rule covering the time between the RFP and the snap is 7-2-1, as stated before. If illegal shift and motion fouls were meant to include "after the RFP," why would that phrase be left out, yet included in 7-2-1? I see this as intentional rather than an accidental exclusion in the rules. Legal motions or shifts should be allowed to take place prior to, during, and after the RFP with no consequence.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 03:05:48 PM »
One of the perks of this job.  YOU get to decide which side of the coin you're looking at. Of course, the other side of that coin is that YOU'RE likely held responsible for what you decide YOU saw.

Once YOU decide to open Pandora's box, YOU need to be prepared for WHATEVER might be inside.

"Legal motions or shifts should be allowed to take place prior to, during, and after the RFP with no consequence"., covers an awful lot of possibilities.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 03:07:22 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline NICrew-TA

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 08:02:05 AM »
The example of all players set and then going into motion prior to the RFP can be solved by good mechanics/officiating. Umpire stays over the ball until the Ref motions umpire out and blows the RFP whistle. The center will be getting set after the RFP - officiate on!

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2017, 04:27:14 PM »
The example of all players set and then going into motion prior to the RFP can be solved by good mechanics/officiating. Umpire stays over the ball until the Ref motions umpire out and blows the RFP whistle. The center will be getting set after the RFP - officiate on!
Can't prevent team A from getting set prior to the RFP but the U can stand by the center reminding him that he can't snap the ball until after the RFP sounds.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2017, 10:06:59 PM »
Forgive me, but what part of , "Ready for Play signifies the referee has signaled the ball may be put in play" am I misunderstanding that which happens before that, isn't actual playing time, and moving around has no stated significance, and is simply getting into position to be "Ready for play"?
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 10:09:07 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline VA Official

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2017, 11:30:53 PM »
Forgive me, but what part of , "Ready for Play signifies the referee has signaled the ball may be put in play" am I misunderstanding that which happens before that, isn't actual playing time, and moving around has no stated significance, and is simply getting into position to be "Ready for play"?

What if they're not "moving around" but instead are in set positions awaiting the RFP and snap? I still can't find anything in 7-2-6 that says the players can't legally come to an absolute stop prior to the RFP. Again, if the RFP was required to come first, it would've been explicitly stated in 7-2-6.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 08:37:42 AM »
May I suggest you're missing a basic point; until the RFP whatever movement a player chooses to make, or not make, between the previous whistle (stoppage) and the RFP (as long as it doesn't violate another rule) is immaterial, as it happens during a period that "has yet to be declared RFP.

Offline VA Official

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2017, 11:22:41 AM »
May I suggest you're missing a basic point; until the RFP whatever movement a player chooses to make, or not make, between the previous whistle (stoppage) and the RFP (as long as it doesn't violate another rule) is immaterial, as it happens during a period that "has yet to be declared RFP.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this. Personally, until I read where the dead ball period prior to the RFP is in limbo, where players coming to an absolute stop in accordance with 7-2-6 doesn't matter, I'm going to have to go with it being legal. Per the definition in 2-35, the RFP whistle only signifies two things: that the ball may be put in play ("put in play" only means it is allowed to either be snapped or free kicked), and the 25 second clock starts. It does not say that anything prior to the RFP is irrelevant or that motion or shifts cannot occur. "Ready for play" means "the ball is ready to be snapped/free kicked," not "players get ready to play."

To each his own though. tiphat:
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 11:58:03 AM by VA Official »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2017, 11:58:47 AM »
May I suggest you're missing a basic point; until the RFP whatever movement a player chooses to make, or not make, between the previous whistle (stoppage) and the RFP (as long as it doesn't violate another rule) is immaterial, as it happens during a period that "has yet to be declared RFP.

Where in the rule do we get the " ...until the RFP whatever movement a player chooses to make, or not make, between the previous whistle (stoppage) and the RFP (as long as it doesn't violate another rule) is immaterial..".  Lots of things occur during the "pre RFP period" that are not immaterial.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2017, 12:12:32 PM »
A common misnomer I've heard is : "..if there is less than a second (on 1/10 second clocks), and the clock starts on the RFP, just end the period as they can't be set for a second."

IMHO, as long as they are set for a second before a snap they are legal.

IMHO, the foul of illegal motion would be failure to set for a second after breaking the huddle.

IMHO, if we are within milliseconds of ending something, I'm a' yelling :"CLOCK STARTS ON MY WHISTLE, CLOCK STARTS ON MY WHISTLE !!!."

Offline edtude

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2017, 12:58:27 PM »


IMHO, if we are within milliseconds of ending something, I'm a' yelling :"CLOCK STARTS ON MY WHISTLE, CLOCK STARTS ON MY WHISTLE !!!."

I say that with less than a minute to go in the game and will still get yelled at after the game..."why did the clock start?"

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Motion: Legal or Illegal?
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2017, 01:19:13 PM »
Where in the rule do we get the " ...until the RFP whatever movement a player chooses to make, or not make, between the previous whistle (stoppage) and the RFP (as long as it doesn't violate another rule) is immaterial..".  Lots of things occur during the "pre RFP period" that are not immaterial.

Absolutely agree (as long as it doesn't violate another rule)