Author Topic: One action, two fouls?  (Read 933 times)

Offline ncwingman

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One action, two fouls?
« on: August 31, 2017, 09:11:28 AM »
In discussing hypothetical situations, the topic came up about whether or not a single action might result in multiple enforceable penalties. We quickly determined that it could realistically only occur when USC comes into play -- mostly because they'd have to be, at the very least, dead ball enforcement. If A65 held the linebacker B56 by grabbing his facemask, you cannot enforce both holding and the facemask fouls on the same play since they are both live ball fouls by the same team.

The "best" example we came up with is this: Assistant coach Jim Bob thinks he sees a holding call, so he comes into th restricted area during the down, shoulder bumps the wing official while saying "You gotta call that, you *&$%%^%^!"

Can you enforce the 15 for sideline interference AND the 15 for the obscenity? (And since I'm in NC... 15 for a mouthy assistant coach?) Or, by rule, do you just have to pick one?

Offline FLAHL

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2017, 09:16:50 AM »

The "best" example we came up with is this: Assistant coach Jim Bob thinks he sees a holding call, so he comes into th restricted area during the down, shoulder bumps the wing official while saying "You gotta call that, you *&$%%^%^!"

Can you enforce the 15 for sideline interference AND the 15 for the obscenity? (And since I'm in NC... 15 for a mouthy assistant coach?) Or, by rule, do you just have to pick one?

I think you have rule book support for 2 fouls.  Making contact with an official in the restricted area is a foul (9-4-8).  Disrespectfully addressing an official is a foul (9-8-1).  In practice, you'd have to judge the severity and decide if you want to go with one 15 yard penalty, or 2.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 09:20:26 AM by FLAHL »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2017, 09:25:21 AM »
Sometimes it's easy to forget, that the checks we collect for the bad behavior of non-players, are actually paid out of the player's account.  In the scenario you describe EITHER/BOTH actions of an overly emotional, immature adult merit sending him to the parking lot.

I'm not sure if a double application would send him beyond the parking lot, so other than draw a second 15 yard check from the player's account, what does the 2nd penalty accomplish.  The report that should accompany the initial disqualification should itemize each unacceptable behavior.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2017, 09:48:56 AM »
Those penalties can't be combined to create 2 UNS fouls since the contact foul is for Illegal Personal Contact.  If the "bump" is flagrant, that could justify the ejection on its own.

I also struggle with the idea that flagging the coach is hurting the players.  After 15 years of this, I've come to realize that by NOT flagging the coach, all we're doing is allowing him to continue to behave badly, week after week.  My philosophy now is that the flag I throw this week is (hopefully) going to help every crew that works after me for the rest of the season.  I'm hoping that the NCAA crackdown on bad behavior works at that level, even if it means a few flags on coaches.  That may help us as well.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2017, 10:43:52 AM »
I suppose you could technically say PI and intentional PI are one action treated as 2 fouls.
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Offline ncwingman

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2017, 10:48:21 AM »
Those penalties can't be combined to create 2 UNS fouls since the contact foul is for Illegal Personal Contact.  If the "bump" is flagrant, that could justify the ejection on its own.

I also struggle with the idea that flagging the coach is hurting the players.  After 15 years of this, I've come to realize that by NOT flagging the coach, all we're doing is allowing him to continue to behave badly, week after week.  My philosophy now is that the flag I throw this week is (hopefully) going to help every crew that works after me for the rest of the season.  I'm hoping that the NCAA crackdown on bad behavior works at that level, even if it means a few flags on coaches.  That may help us as well.

I'm absolutely not trying to state that it's a double USC for disqualification purposes (and where I am, at least, a ejection for a single flagrant act carries more supplemental discipline from the state). Also, if a coach intentionally bumps me during a live ball in an aggressive manner, I wouldn't think twice about tossing him just for that.

In further thought, a "better" hypothetical scenario would be if the coach does NOT make contact -- simply comes into the restricted area to yell obscenities. You can flag and eject the assistant coach for the USC, but taking a step down the sideline warning pathway is also warranted to wake up the head coach as well -- if it's the second infraction, you'd have the 15 and the 5.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: One action, two fouls?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2017, 10:57:47 AM »
NC - I didn't think you were saying that.  I was attempting to add a bit of clarification to Al's statement "I'm not sure if a double application would send him beyond the parking lot."

In FL, the state also weighs in with possible additional disciplinary action for players or coaches who are ejected.