Author Topic: Safety or touchback?  (Read 1104 times)

Offline prosec34

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Safety or touchback?
« on: September 21, 2017, 07:53:55 AM »
We had a film last night that stirred some debate. A is running towards end zone and B1 knocks ball out of his arms at the 1, the loose ball going into the end zone where B2 intentionally bats it past the end line.

There's a foul for illegal batting. Since the foul by B occurred in the end zone, is it a safety, or is the foul enforced from the 20 due to a touchback?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 08:20:25 AM »
Neither, the foul for the illegal bat by B would be enforced from the end of the related run - B's 1. Assuming this was not a goal-to-go play, A would have 1st @ B's 1/2 yard line. If A was to decline the penalty (you shouldn't let 'em), A's force put the ball into EZ where B fouled = touchback. If the illegal bat had occurred in the field of play and the ball then went into the end zone = safety.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2017, 08:35:19 AM »
Remember your all-but-one...  The only foul that is not enforced from the basic spot is a foul by the offense behind that basic spot.

Since the foul was committed by B, it's a basic spot foul. The basic spot on a running play is the end of the run.  So, as Ralph says, enforce it from the 1 and replay the down.

Offline prosec34

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2017, 03:30:06 PM »
Doggone. I think you all are right. Literally everyone in our association had it wrong last night at our meeting.

So, foul was by B before change of possession, the enforcement spot for which would be the end of A's run.

Offline prosec34

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 08:26:01 AM »
My association's rules guru says you all are incorrect. He cites 10-4-5d, that when the final result of a play is a touchback, the enforcement spot is the 20. I've argued to him that B did not get the ball with clean hands (B intentionally batted the ball out of the end zone to prevent A's recovery) and that the principle you have cited applies. He says the clean hands provision does not apply because there was no change of possession during the down (2-34-3).

I think there is potential to interpret the rules either way between A keeping the ball and B getting it at the 10.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Safety or touchback?
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2017, 09:07:15 AM »
Pardon my perceived tone here, but you need a new rules guru.  The proper rule reference here is 10-4-4, not 5. Because the final result here will not be a touchback. The succeeding spot in this case will be 1/2 distance from end of related run. There's no way we're giving b the ball as the direct result of the foul, coming out to the 20 and marking off half the distance against them. Goes against everything in the rule book.

As to the interpretation comment, there's two ways to interpret every rule. The right way and the wrong way.

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« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:18:41 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2017, 09:16:21 AM »
Think about the principle this way: If there's a long pass play where B intercepts the ball in the EZ and takes a knee, that's normally a touchback. But, if there is a penalty on B during that down, such as DPI or Roughing the passer, we are not going to go to the 20, mark off the penalty against B and give them the ball. We're going back to basic spot, which in that case would be previous spot, mark off the penalty against B, and A keeps the ball. This situation is exactly the same as far as the principle goes.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 09:19:52 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline prosec34

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2017, 09:27:01 AM »
Well, I agree with you Calhoun. I even brought up the scenario where B might've caused the fumble with an illegal act (facemask, illegal helmet contact) and his interpretation allowing B to profit from the foul.

The confusion comes in interpreting the word "final" in "final result" of the play being a touchback. I agree with you that you cannot reach a final result because of the foul preceding the ruling of a touchback.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Safety or touchback?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2017, 09:36:44 AM »
Well, I agree with you Calhoun. I even brought up the scenario where B might've caused the fumble with an illegal act (facemask, illegal helmet contact) and his interpretation allowing B to profit from the foul.

The confusion comes in interpreting the word "final" in "final result" of the play being a touchback. I agree with you that you cannot reach a final result because of the foul preceding the ruling of a touchback.

Exactly. If B had recovered the ball in the EZ, and then fouled, it would be a different story. The basic spot would be the 20, and all-but-one would apply. If the foul was in the EZ, safety, if behind the 20, spot of foul, if beyond the 20, mark off from the 20.