Author Topic: Enforcement Spot ??  (Read 3970 times)

Offline dch

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Enforcement Spot ??
« on: October 09, 2017, 04:05:21 PM »
QB A1 takes a hand to hand snap rolls out to his right, about 4 yards deep, where he hands the ball backwards to the wide receiver A2, running a reverse.  A2 sweeps around the left side, turns up field and gains 5 yards before he is tackled.  During the down A67 holds at the line of scrimmage. 
Where is the Basic Spot and where is the Enforcement Spot?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 05:01:37 PM »
Basic spot end of run. Spot of enforcement los
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 06:28:37 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 05:25:36 PM »
Am I missing something?


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Offline dch

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 05:30:06 PM »
When the QB hands the ball to teammate is there one running play or two running play segments during the down? 
Was the foul beyond or behind the end of the related run?

What if instead of handing the ball to A2 the QB throws a very short backward pass to him?  Now what?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 06:24:48 PM »
Same thing. It’s all part of the same running play.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 06:59:45 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline VA Official

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 12:34:24 AM »
Same thing. Its all part of the same running play.

This is not true in the second case. If there is a backward pass behind the LOS, everything during and prior to the pass is now a loose ball play. Once A2 possesses the ball, everything after that point is a run play. 10-3-1

When the QB hands the ball to teammate is there one running play or two running play segments during the down? 
Was the foul beyond or behind the end of the related run?

What if instead of handing the ball to A2 the QB throws a very short backward pass to him?  Now what?


In the backward pass scenario, it depends on when the foul takes place. If it was during or prior to the backward pass, the basic spot is the previous spot. If it was during the run, its the end of the run with the enforcement spot at the spot of the foul because it is behind the basic spot (ABO). Luckily here it doesn't matter because either way you enforce from the LOS.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 10:29:10 AM »
What if there were multiple backward passes in that same situation? Which one would be the loose ball play? Because we can only have one.


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 10:38:45 AM »
It would all be one loose ball play, you don't pick out which one, when you have a loose ball play everything up to the action that makes it a loose ball play is part of said loose ball play.
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!

Offline dch

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 11:33:18 AM »
Do we all agree that if the ball is handed to a team mate it does not create a new run segment just continues as one running play?  This is true if the handing is behind or beyond the line of scrimmage.

But, if the ball is pitched (backward pass) to a team mate behind the LOS then it creates a loose ball play for all the action before the backward pass being caught and a running play for the action after the catch.  If the backward pass occurred beyond the LOS then there would not be a loose ball play, instead there would be two running play segments and two separate basic spots for penalty enforcement consideration.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 11:59:12 AM »
I guess i should have kept my keyboard shut. This confuses me more than any other rule..
 ???

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 01:53:40 PM »
IMHO, everything behind the LOS up to the last backward pass is a loose ball play with the previous spot being the basic spot...

IMHO, everything after the run began (with no further backward passes behind the line) would now be a running play with the basic spot being the end of the run.

IMHO, "WHEN" of WHO/WHAT/WHEN/WHERE would apply, the  foul occurred behind the basic spot so the enforcement spot would become the spot of the foul.

IMHO,
  SOX SUCK......CUBBIES RULE aWaRd

IMHO, I should listen to my brain, not my heart on future predictions :(

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 03:06:19 PM »
Do we all agree that if the ball is handed to a team mate it does not create a new run segment just continues as one running play?  This is true if the handing is behind or beyond the line of scrimmage.

If we have a "legal" handoff (hand-to-hand transfer of the ball) beyond the LOS we have a new run segment don't we?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline VA Official

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 05:01:39 AM »
If we have a "legal" handoff (hand-to-hand transfer of the ball) beyond the LOS we have a new run segment don't we?

If that was the case, wed have to bean bag a handoff whether its in the backfield or beyond the LOS. My answer is no. A run play is a run play until the ball is loose, after which we either have another run play or everything prior is now a loose ball play.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 10:06:45 AM »
1st and 10 at the B-45.  Ball carrier A-24 is running beyond the LOS and is "tackled" by the facemask at the B-40.  Before he is down by rule, he legally hands the ball to A-26 who is then tackled at the B-30.  We've got a PF facemask flag down at the B-40.  What are the options here?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:34:16 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 11:34:21 AM »
I've got 1st and 10 at the 15 if A accepts the penalty. The handing by A did not constitute a new run.

Offline Curious

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 02:46:38 PM »
10-3-2: "A running play is any action not included in Article 1 (i.e., a loose ball play) other than 2-33-1a (i.e., PSK)

10-3-3b: "The end of the run is where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball". 

10-4-4: "The basic spot is the spot where the related run ends for a foul which occurs during a running play as defined in 10-3-2"

Since, in the OP, there is no subsequent loose ball (ball handed off legally), it follows that there is only one run - and the facemask penalty would be enforced from the 30

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2017, 05:51:21 AM »
So then how about this slightly different version of the "same" down:

1st and 10 at the B-45.  Ball carrier A-24 is running beyond the LOS and is "tackled" by the facemask at the B-40.  Before he is down by rule, he legally backward passes the ball to A-26 who is then tackled at the B-30.  We've got a PF facemask flag down at the B-40.  What are the options here?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2017, 07:17:20 AM »
TTMH (things that might help) :

A loose ball play can only occur BEHIND the LOS.

A handoff is not considered a loose ball.

A botched handoff is considered a fumble.
 - If it occurs BEHIND the LOS, it is considered a loose ball play.
 - If it occurs BEYOND the LOS, it is considered the end of the RELATED run.

Predictions made with your heart ,and not your brain, may not have happy endings.

  (I believe this is #5 of 10)

SOX SUCK..CUBBIES RULE

-PURPLE IS RED AND BLUE COMBINED.

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2017, 08:12:48 AM »
A loose ball play can only occur BEHIND the LOS.

How does that reconcile with the actual definition?

2-33-1 :  A loose-ball play is action during:
a.   A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b.   A legal foward pass.
c.   A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 10:31:17 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2017, 08:22:42 AM »
So then how about this slightly different version of the "same" down:

1st and 10 at the B-45.  Ball carrier A-24 is running beyond the LOS and is "tackled" by the facemask at the B-40.  Before he is down by rule, he legally backward passes the ball to A-26 who is then tackled at the B-30.  We've got a PF facemask flag down at the B-40.  What are the options here?
From what I’ve been reading this week, it seems like the enforcement spot is the end of related run, so it would be 1/10 at the 35. Only problem I’m having with it is that I can’t remember ever beanbagging a backward pass beyond the los.


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Offline VALJ

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2017, 10:41:16 AM »
How does that reconcile with the actual definition?

2-33-1 :  A loose-ball play is action during:
a.   A free kick or scrimmage kick other than post-scrimmage kick fouls.
b.   A legal foward pass.
c.   A backward pass (including the snap), an illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.
The run or runs which precedes such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble.

A legal kick can only occur behind the LOS, and can a legal forward pass.  Section c specifically states "made from in or behind the neutral zone prior to a change of team possession.  So, a loose ball play can only occur when the ball is loose behind the LOS.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2017, 10:59:12 AM »
VALC is right in the pure definition - a ball that becomes loose behind the LOS fits the definition of a loose ball play for penalty enforcement purposes. A ball that come loose downfield is not a loose ball play. A running play is "everything else". If a team has "fumbleitis" you may have more than one running play.

VALC was also right in his prediction :

CUBS RULE..SOX SUCK...

AT LEAST FOR ANOTHER DAY :)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2017, 11:00:47 AM »
From what I’ve been reading this week, it seems like the enforcement spot is the end of related run, so it would be 1/10 at the 25. Only problem I’m having with it is that I can’t remember ever beanbagging a backward pass beyond the los.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2017, 12:04:21 PM »
VALC is right in the pure definition - a ball that becomes loose behind the LOS fits the definition of a loose ball play for penalty enforcement purposes. A ball that come loose downfield is not a loose ball play. A running play is "everything else". If a team has "fumbleitis" you may have more than one running play.

So if we accept that the commas in 2-33-1 are misplaced (and I'm not sure that I agree), what is the play when we have a live ball loose from a legal backward pass before it is controlled by the receiving player?  It's still a "run"?  ???
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Enforcement Spot ??
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2017, 12:11:12 PM »
So then how about this slightly different version of the "same" down:

1st and 10 at the B-45.  Ball carrier A-24 is running beyond the LOS and is "tackled" by the facemask at the B-40.  Before he is down by rule, he legally backward passes the ball to A-26 who is then tackled at the B-30.  We've got a PF facemask flag down at the B-40.  What are the options here?

So will someone kindly answer this question so I can figure this out? Thanks.