Author Topic: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?  (Read 945 times)

Offline higham85

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Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« on: October 12, 2017, 09:07:39 PM »
Looking for clarification on a rule. In a JV game last night a runner on team A broke free on a long touchdown run and was 10 -15 yards of ahead of any player on team B in pursuit. No chance of any player on team B catching the runner. When the runner was on about the 10 yard line a teammate blocked a team B player who was in pursuit and one of the refs threw a flag and called a block in the back. The referees talked it over then signaled that the touchdown still stood and the penalty would be enforced on the extra point try or kickoff. When team B asked for an explanation they were told it was a targeting or hit on a defenseless player call so the touchdown was still good. I can't find anything in the rules that support the ruling that the touchdown would not come back? The play was still in progress?   Any help or clarification on this would be appreciated. Thanks

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2017, 09:41:14 PM »
Running play. Live ball foul. Based on your description, if the foul was a BIB, it would be 10 yards from the spot of the foul, next down. (1st if LTG was made following enforcement; replay previous down if not).

Crew needs to make up their mind if the foul was an illegal hit on a defenseless player, targeting, or a BIB. Either way, the score does not count AND the penalty does not carry over to the try or KO.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 07:59:39 AM by Rulesman »
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Offline scrounge

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2017, 07:31:53 AM »
Not to mention that there is no such foul as "hit on a defenseless player". What was illegal about the hit? Was it an illegal blindside block? Unnecessary? Initiating contact at or above the neck?

You're allowed to hit a defenseless player, perhaps even very hard, you just have to do it legally.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2017, 08:00:45 AM »
Not to mention that there is no such foul as "hit on a defenseless player". What was illegal about the hit? Was it an illegal blindside block? Unnecessary? Initiating contact at or above the neck?

You're allowed to hit a defenseless player, perhaps even very hard, you just have to do it legally.
Good catch. I amended my answer by adding “an illegal hit”...
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2017, 08:01:41 AM »
Welcome, Higham 85, to our forum. May you find it both enjoyable and informative. This is another classic example of the importance of "WHEN" in the who/what/when/ where in penalty enforcement. IF the foul occurred prior to the runner entering the end zone, the penalty would be enforced under the all-but-one from the spot of the foul. IF it occurred after the runner entered the end zone and deemed a personal foul, B could choose to move the try to the 18 or the kickoff to the 25. IF it was a block in the back and occurred after the runner scored, the flag would be waived off as dead ball fouls would need to be either PFs or USCs. BIB is sorta' like holding - if it occurs after the ball is dead, it's disregarded. Hope this helps.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2017, 08:10:35 AM »
Sounds like a 9-4-3-b personal foul (15 yards) to me.  Forcible contact against a player obviously out of the play ("10 -15 yards of ahead of any player on team B in pursuit").  As noted by others from the description here, with the ball carrier at about the 10 yard line, this is a live ball foul enforced from the spot of the foul, no TD.

If the runner who was "in pursuit" was in your judgment still in the play then it would be a simple block in the back, but again a live ball foul, 10 yard enforcement from the spot of the foul, no TD.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:36:31 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline higham85

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2017, 10:08:24 AM »
Thank you for the responses. Very helpful. The block on the play looked like a block in the back. The blocker came up from behind at an angle and hit/pushed the defender in pursuit. It wasn't a hard it and the blocker had his hands in front of him.  The only foul I could see was it was in the back and unnecessary as the player getting blocked had no chance of catching the runner. What is the "all-but-one from the spot of the foul"?

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2017, 10:14:34 AM »
What is the "all-but-one from the spot of the foul"?
See Rule 10-6 for All-But-One. The rule book is a wonderful reference tool, especially if you are new to this avocation.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2017, 11:50:25 AM »
The logic to the "all-but-one" is that the foul may have aided the offense to advance the ball further..ie.. a block in the back may have taken out a opponent about to make a tackle and enabled the runner to gain further. Other fouls are penalized from the end of the run for running play while the all-but-one is for a foul by B behind the end of the run.

Offline higham85

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2017, 11:52:10 AM »
Thank you. I have the rule book and I try and reference it often but it can be very difficult to follow and understand. I think the more you become familiar with it the more helpful it is. I have spent a lot of time trying to find clarification on a certain rule and can't find anything definitive. Hopefully the more learn the easier it will be to understand.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2017, 02:18:47 PM »
As others have said, perhaps the foul was judged to be after the ball crossed the goal line. There are also officials who will (wrongly) flag hits like this way off the ball as unsportsmanlike conduct (treated as a dead-ball foul) instead of a personal foul.

Regardless, what the officials gave as the reason for counting the touchdown was blatantly incorrect. There is nothing in the book about a targeting foul or a foul against a defenseless player automatically resulting in dead-ball enforcement.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2017, 02:33:23 PM »
Thank you. I have the rule book and I try and reference it often but it can be very difficult to follow and understand. I think the more you become familiar with it the more helpful it is. I have spent a lot of time trying to find clarification on a certain rule and can't find anything definitive. Hopefully the more learn the easier it will be to understand.

Suggestions: Mark the book up thoroughly. Read rule 2 first, then read it again - the second time, read the rule immediately followed by any casebook plays. Read rules 3-10 in the same way, rule then related caseplays. As you go through the rest of the books, highlight every single item you recognize as a technical term defined in rule 2 - including "obvious" ones like "kick" and "block"; you'll miss some, but don't worry for now - and write down next to the highlighted term the rule number where it is defined. Pay particular attention to rule 6 - kicks are where all the "fun" happens. Rule 10 is critical for a crew to get right, but less so for a rookie - others on your crew will help get enforcements right. Save rule 1 for last - it has the least impact on what we do on a play-by-play basis.

Offline higham85

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2017, 03:50:08 PM »
Thank you. Great advice. Are there any live ball fouls on the offense that would still result in a touchdown?

Offline VA Official

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2017, 08:19:31 PM »
Thank you. Great advice. Are there any live ball fouls on the offense that would still result in a touchdown?

Any foul that occurs during a live ball that is enforced at the succeeding spot. For instance, nonplayer fouls (sideline interference, one type of illegal substitution, etc) and unsportsmanlike conduct fouls. To be technical, these fouls don’t fall under “live ball fouls” even though they do occur during a live ball. Very confusing, I know.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 08:21:10 PM by VA Official »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Touchdown still counts after hit on defenseless player call?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 08:06:08 AM »
The logic to the "all-but-one" is that the foul may have aided the offense to advance the ball further..ie.. a block in the back may have taken out a opponent about to make a tackle and enabled the runner to gain further. Other fouls are penalized from the end of the run for running play while the all-but-one is for a foul by B A behind the end of the run.

FIFY