Author Topic: illegal substitution or not  (Read 1837 times)

Offline fudilligas

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illegal substitution or not
« on: October 19, 2017, 02:41:18 PM »
this happened 11 times in a jv game....it turns out it is also happening on the varsity level so it appears that it is being coached this way:

team A breaks the huddle with 11 players...A11 makes a bee line to the sideline and leaves the field making it appear that there were 12 in the huddle...  A12 enters the field, not where A11 left the field, but from the team box, and takes a position in the slot...all requirements for being inside the numbers and being set for 1 second have been met ....6 of those 11 times B12 was wide open down the field for a pass....it appears that the offense is doing this to deceive the defense into believing that there were 12 players in the huddle and that the player leaving the field was not supposed to be there....

I don't know of anything is the book that says when a substitution has to be completed....technically I don't see anything illegal.... other officials want a USC called because of the purposeful deception.... comments please

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2017, 02:45:49 PM »
Sounds very fishy. Legal by the black and white of the rule book for rules 3 and 7, but using the substitution process to deceive is a no-no. I think our officiating judgement makes this a UNS.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2017, 03:18:28 PM »
I'd agree with ChicagoZebra here. IMHO the 1st time this happens we make a mental note of what we saw.  The 2nd time we advise the coach that intentionally using the substitution process to deceive is considered a 15 yard USC under 9-10 Unfair Acts and the next time we see the late "swap" we'll be flagging it.  Clearly from the description here, it's a designed play to "hide-out" an eligible receiver using the "legal" substitution process. That's illegal.

The NFHS football rules committee fairly regularly stresses the "hide-out" play situation(s) and the latest official communication that I have was just prior to the 2016 season.  See the unfair acts section on page 3 of the attachment. 
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 03:30:11 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2017, 03:34:29 PM »
9-9 is failure to wear required equipment.
9-10 is unfair acts, and doesn't cover this, unless you are trying to say the substitution is making a travesty of the game.
9-6-4d would be the proper rule reference if you want to put a stop to this.

Offline sir55

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 03:48:08 PM »
I agree with Calhoun. Case Book play 7.3.5 A seems to cover this situation. If you think they are doing this to deceive the defense, it is illegal participation.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 03:52:27 PM »
Directly from the NFHS memo issued last season:

The NFHS Football Rules Book specifically prohibits unfair acts. Rule 9-10 lists some examples of unfair acts, including hiding the football under a jersey or using an illegal kicking tee. Other unfair acts are prohibited by the spirit and intent of other rules, include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. Uniforms which do not conform to specified standards or which have a foreign substance on them;
2. Use of disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with the offensive team’s signals or movements; and
3. “Hide-Out” plays, including those that use a substitution or pretended substitution in order to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

I'm not  sure which specific rule reference I would use but per NFHS directions "Hide-Out" plays fall under unfair acts which are 15 yard USC penalties.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 04:20:36 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Magician

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 04:10:22 PM »
If he came inside the numbers and was a slot receiver, I have a hard time considering him "hiding out". If you have anything here it would be IP per 9-6-4d, using a substitution at or immediately before the free kick. But if you have a player leaving and another playing getting into the formation inside the numbers, I don't see how you do that.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2017, 07:25:26 PM »
Directly from the NFHS memo issued last season:

The NFHS Football Rules Book specifically prohibits unfair acts. Rule 9-10 lists some examples of unfair acts, including hiding the football under a jersey or using an illegal kicking tee. Other unfair acts are prohibited by the spirit and intent of other rules, include, but are not limited to, the following:
1. Uniforms which do not conform to specified standards or which have a foreign substance on them;
2. Use of disconcerting acts or words prior to the snap in an attempt to interfere with the offensive team’s signals or movements; and
3. “Hide-Out” plays, including those that use a substitution or pretended substitution in order to deceive opponents at or immediately before the snap or free kick.

I'm not  sure which specific rule reference I would use but per NFHS directions "Hide-Out" plays fall under unfair acts which are 15 yard USC penalties.

I agree unfair acts which have no specific rules coverages are USC fouls. This is clear from the first sentence of the memo: Rule 9-10 states that a player or non-player or person(s) not subject to the rules shall not hinder
play by an unfair act that has no specific rule coverage.


However, since this situation has specific rules coverage, (9-6-4d), then IMO, we apply IP penalty, which is 15 yds. A couple of those flags and he gets the message.

This statement in the memo seems to imply the authority to do that: If an unfair-act foul
occurs and the foul already has a penalty associated with it, the referee may invoke another
equitable penalty if the foul is so unfair that its normal penalty would be insufficient.

The way I read this sentence, if the foul already has a penalty associated with it that is sufficient, then we don't necessarily have to tack on another foul, or even escalate it to USC.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 08:59:28 PM »
Sounds very fishy. Legal by the black and white of the rule book for rules 3 and 7, but using the substitution process to deceive is a no-no. I think our officiating judgement makes this a UNS.
Not legal by any means. Don't even try to convince yourself otherwise. This is clearly UNS and it is charged to A12. One more and he's done for the night. It's covered in Rule 9-6-4d. Also see Case Book plays  9.6.4 SITUATION A and 9-6-4 SITUATION B.

Note this foul is not mentioned in Rule 9-10 in the 2017 Rule Book as 9-10 excludes the UNS counting as one for DQ.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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illegal substitution or not
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2017, 10:05:11 PM »
The rule reference and both casebook plays indicate this is IP and not USC .


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Offline Badger1

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2017, 07:00:23 AM »
I agree this should be called as illegal participation (foul at the snap).  Just wondering how someone would enforce the penalty if called UNS?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2017, 09:57:03 AM »
I agree this should be called as illegal participation (foul at the snap).  Just wondering how someone would enforce the penalty if called UNS?
In the NCAA side of the football world that some of us in southeastern MA/northern RI also work we have been given the following guidance:

1.  The first time we see this kind of situation we make a mental note and assume that it was a "good faith" error by the specific players involved.
2.  The second time it gets repeated we have a talk to the HC and clearly state that the 3rd time he gets a USC.  That's based on the fact that this is a designed called play - not a player error.  Some of the R's have suggested that we kill the play before the snap and warn the HC at that time.
3.  The 3rd time he gets the Unfair Acts UNS flag.

Both times that I've been in the game where we've enforced this (NCAA rules games) it's been enforced as a DB foul with no replay of the down.  I don't see any reason that it could not be enforced the same way in NFHS based on the specific preseason guidance memo that we got in 2106.
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Offline PABJNR

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illegal substitution or not
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2017, 10:13:25 AM »
If you are under NCAA rules don’t you just iron cross the offense?


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Offline Curious

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2017, 11:27:09 AM »
this happened 11 times in a jv game....it turns out it is also happening on the varsity level so it appears that it is being coached this way:

Respectfully, let me play "devil's advocate":

team A breaks the huddle with 11 players...(LEGAL) A11 makes a bee line to the sideline and leaves the field making it appear that there were 12 in the huddle (IN YOUR MIND - BUT I ASSUME THE CREW COUNTED AND SIGNALLED 11 ON OFFENSE MAKING THIS NOTHING MORE THAN A LATE SUBSTITUTION - LEGAL UNLESS SOMEONE ON A's SIDELINE WAS YELLING "GET OFF WE HAVE 12 MEN"...)  A12 (ACTUALLY HE BECOMES A11) enters the field, not where A11 left the field (NOT REQUIRED), but from the team box (WHERE ELSE WOULD HE COME FROM?), and takes a position in the slot...all requirements for being inside the numbers and being set for 1 second have been met ....6 of those 11 times B12 was wide open down the field for a pass....it appears that the offense is doing this to deceive the defense into believing that there were 12 players in the huddle and that the player leaving the field was not supposed to be there....

I don't know of anything is the book that says when a substitution has to be completed....technically I don't see anything illegal.... other officials want a USC called because of the purposeful deception.... comments please

So, since all pre-snap requirements for team A were met, I don't see anything illegal unless, as I said, there was some sort of purposely misleading verbal input from A's sideline.  The fact that this play was successful so many times suggests some pretty poor coaching by the defensive team.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2017, 01:05:46 PM »
Quote:
"So, since all pre-snap requirements for team A were met, I don't see anything illegal unless, as I said, there was some sort of purposely misleading verbal input from A's sideline.  The fact that this play was successful so many times suggests some pretty poor coaching by the defensive team."


I have never worked NF and, effectively, know nothing of NF rules, so I don't usually comment on NF stuff.  But, from what I've seen above, this appears to parallel NCAA in that it doesn't matter if they meet the technical requirements of the scrimmage rules.  Their INTENT is to deceive Team B by use of the substitution process.  In NCAA, the rulesmakers and interpreters have consistently and firmly ruled such action to be unsportsmanlike, and illegal.

Fortunately, in NCAA, we have the "match up" requirement, and, when we see someone come off the sideline and A is moving to, or at, their LOS, we simply don't let them snap until B has had an opportunity to match up.  Team B may not have noticed the A sub slip onto the field, but WE HAVE TO.  And, when we do, we get the U or C on the ball to prevent the snap.  That clues B to check the field, and then they can get matched up.  That takes all the fun out of it for A, and they stop doing it.

But even before we had the "match up" requirement, the rules and interpreters, as I mentioned, have held such action to be illegal.  Back then, we had to let them snap the ball to get a foul, or any intervention.  But, we would catch them, most of the time.  Had somebody attempt a hideout on us once.  F got it.  Not related to subs, but UNS nonetheless, with  his team at the LOS, had a QB start walking toward his sideline yelling, waving his arms, and acting like he didn't get the play.  Then they snapped to the fullback, who ran for good yardage.  I got 'em for UNS.  (Fully supported by my coord and the National Coord.)

The rulesmakers want teams to play straight up.  That doesn't mean they can't use slight-of-hand with the ball, or directional deception, etc.  Boise made a name for themselves doing just that (all legal, and ethical).  But to deceive opponents with subs, equipment, or other pre-snap trickery is just plain UNS.

Someone mentioned above that a "one off" incident might be overlooked as being purely unintentional.  In the absence of "match up" rules, I buy that philosophy 100%.  First time it happens, warn 'em (by " 'em", I mean guilty player and his coach).  Afterward, nail 'em.

Enjoy the day!

Robert
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 03:42:04 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2017, 03:36:38 PM »
If you are under NCAA rules don’t you just iron cross the offense?
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If the game was today, yes.  Prior to the "match up" rules changes we under NCAA rules had exactly the same issues described in the case play and posts here.  Elvis pretty much has it covered with his comment: "The rulesmakers want teams to play straight up."  You simply cannot deceive the opponent using the substitution process.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: illegal substitution or not
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2017, 10:02:00 AM »
The reason this is an IP foul as often it isn't noticed until the play has begun. IP ,in this situation, is a previous spot foul while USC would be succeeding spot enforcement.

CASE 9.9.10 applies to the funky stuff : "Who's got the tee ;) ?...Bubba has to pee....what happened to the football ;) ?" and the like. You can usually spot it developing before it happens -  ^flag just blow and throw. If you don't realize what you're about to see until you've seen it, shut 'er down like you would an encroachment or false start a split-second before the snap. 15 USC on head coach and he's half way (as long as he wasn't already there) to the locker room.

These should all be prevented when we ask the coaches of unusual / trick plays in pre-game. If he suggests plays along these lines, suggest that they are not a good idea.