Author Topic: Catch or No Catch  (Read 2262 times)

Offline whkeeler

  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Catch or No Catch
« on: October 23, 2017, 04:32:02 PM »
A1 throws a pass from B's 10 yard line into the end zone where A2 jumps up, catches the ball, lands in bounds in the end zone with both feet, and brings the ball down to his chest and has control of the ball.  Then B1 hits A2 but after A2 controls the ball and lands on his feet and due to the hit, A2 lands on his back where the ball comes lose and rolls out of the end zone.  The hit by B1 was not considered late as it happened about a second after A2 came down and controlled the ball.  Catch or no catch?

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 06:48:11 PM »
A1 throws a pass from B's 10 yard line into the end zone where A2 jumps up, catches the ball, lands in bounds in the end zone with both feet, and brings the ball down to his chest and has control of the ball.  Then B1 hits A2 but after A2 controls the ball and lands on his feet and due to the hit, A2 lands on his back where the ball comes lose and rolls out of the end zone.  The hit by B1 was not considered late as it happened about a second after A2 came down and controlled the ball.  Catch or no catch?

This is a catch and TD in NFHS. Once he possesses the ball while first touching the ground inbounds, the catch is completed. There’s no “maintain possession through contact and/or the ground” requirement in HS football.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 08:01:40 PM »
A1 throws a pass from B's 10 yard line into the end zone where A2 jumps up, catches the ball, lands in bounds in the end zone with both feet, and brings the ball down to his chest and has control of the ball.  Then B1 hits A2 but after A2 controls the ball and lands on his feet and due to the hit, A2 lands on his back where the ball comes lose and rolls out of the end zone.  The hit by B1 was not considered late as it happened about a second after A2 came down and controlled the ball.  Catch or no catch?

Incomplete pass. I would not rule this a catch/fumble at midfield, and therefore I'm not going to rule this a catch here, either.

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 549
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-41
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 10:14:05 PM »
I agree with VA Official on this one.  TD

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 46
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 10:23:24 PM »
I agree with VA Official on this one.  TD
I also agree tha this is a catch and TD.  He came down with the ball in his possession in the end zone.  Even if he fumbled, as suggested by others, this is a TD.  Whether you would call this at midfield is of no consequence.  Possession of a live ball in the opponent's end zone is immediately a touchdown. ^good

Online CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 456
  • FAN REACTION: +11/-19
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Catch or No Catch
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2017, 06:51:07 AM »
Take the hit out of it. Let’s suppose bubba jumps high, catches the ball, tiptoes land inbounds. Bubba falls to the ground and ball pops out. TD?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2017, 08:59:17 AM »
Take the hit out of it. Let’s suppose bubba jumps high, catches the ball, tiptoes land inbounds. Bubba falls to the ground and ball pops out. TD?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Touchdown. We can't let the definition of a catch on Saturdays and Sundays influence us on Fridays. We all would like some uniformity on this, but frankly a catch in NFHS requires much, much less than it does in NCAA or the NFL.

This article from 2014 is one of the best that I've read and I re-read it once or twice a season now with me being a deep official. It talks about developing a "checklist" for defining control and it gives great examples that I use myself. In the OP, my "control checklist" was met when the receiver brought the ball into his chest and "controlled it."

 ^good

http://nfhs.org/articles/incomplete-or-fumble/
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 11:13:04 AM by VA Official »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2840
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2017, 11:10:11 AM »
Touchdown. We can't let the definition of a catch on Saturdays and Sundays influence us on Fridays. We all would like some uniformity on this, but frankly a catch in NFHS requires much, much less than it does in NCAA or the NFL.
No disagreement that the rules for NFHS are different and the threshold for a catch is "less stringent" but we still are required to make the judgement call that the receiver had clear possession and control of the ball to be a completed pass.  Simply having both hands on the ball at some point IMHO doesn't in and of itself make it a completed pass.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2017, 11:14:57 AM »
No disagreement that the rules for NFHS are different and the threshold for a catch is "less stringent" but we still are required to make the judgement call that the receiver had clear possession and control of the ball to be a completed pass.  Simply having both hands on the ball at some point IMHO doesn't in and of itself make it a completed pass.

I agree completely. What sold me on the catch (or rather, the control) was bringing the ball into the body and "controlling it" there, as was stated in the OP.

Offline ada152

  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2017, 08:16:37 AM »

Offline ada152

  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2017, 08:20:07 AM »
After reading this OP again, I think the timing of the this play would be critical. I think it is definitely one I would have to see to rule on.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3360
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-489
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2017, 05:00:57 PM »
No two plays in the history of Football have ever been EXACTLY the "same", so it's all about the play YOU are looking at, and what YOU actually see.  The covering official determines possession, and a "catch" "is the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground in bounds while maintaining possession of the ball....."

It is also virtually impossible to "paint" a picture with words, so that everyone envisions the exact same picture.


Offline GoodScout

  • *
  • Posts: 413
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-9
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2017, 07:13:36 PM »
"A1 throws a pass from B's 10 yard line into the end zone where A2 jumps up, catches the ball, lands in bounds in the end zone with both feet, and brings the ball down to his chest and has control of the ball. "

Everything you wrote after this is irrelevant. You have a catch and control by an offensive player in the end zone.
 ^good

Offline SCHSref

  • *
  • Posts: 263
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-9
  • In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 07:32:51 AM »
This is a great thread!   aWaRd

I am curious how any would rule on this if the same scenario happened with the exception of the catch made at the 10 yd line.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2840
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 08:06:35 AM »
IMHO you already have your answer at the bottom of you post?   ;) "If you didn't see it, you can't call it."

As we discussed in the previously referenced thread (2014), you have to see the play and make your own determination that the player had both possession and control and effectively has by definition become a runner prior to losing possession of the ball.  Under NFHS rules there is more judgment needed here than under NCAA rules and that judgment is ours.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 08:10:59 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Online CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 456
  • FAN REACTION: +11/-19
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2017, 08:56:17 AM »
I agree with the "have to see it" opinions. At first, I wanted to say incomplete, but after reading all the posts, I'm beginning to think differently. I do believe the hit by B to be important. For example, if this was a diving catch on the boundary, and A got a foot down, pulled the ball in, and as he fell to the ground the ball popped out, I would have incomplete pass for failure to maintain control. But, if he has one (or two) foot(feet) down, has already established control, and then B comes in and does something to cause the ball to come out, (including, but not limited to a hit, or a strip) then I would have a TD.

Offline VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 157
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2017, 10:41:08 AM »
I agree with the "have to see it" opinions. At first, I wanted to say incomplete, but after reading all the posts, I'm beginning to think differently. I do believe the hit by B to be important. For example, if this was a diving catch on the boundary, and A got a foot down, pulled the ball in, and as he fell to the ground the ball popped out, I would have incomplete pass for failure to maintain control. But, if he has one (or two) foot(feet) down, has already established control, and then B comes in and does something to cause the ball to come out, (including, but not limited to a hit, or a strip) then I would have a TD.

Timing absolutely matters. As an alternate situation to yours regarding a diving player near the boundary, what would you have if A jumped to catch the ball, secured the ball into his chest, got a foot down inbounds, but was slowly falling backwards and when he hit the ground the ball popped out?

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3360
  • FAN REACTION: +257/-489
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2017, 12:28:20 PM »
How much beating must this horse be forced to endure?  There are two separate elements; establishing and maintaining possession WHILE touching the ground, in-bounds.  The only person on the planet necessary to make those observations and determinations is the covering game official.

That official is responsible to JUDGE whether possession has been established and is maintained through the received touching the ground in-bounds.  In situations INSIDE the receiver's EZ, the instant those two things are confirmed, (by the calling official) it is a touchdown and the ball becomes dead and the play is over.

Those decisions, and their conclusions, apply ONLY TO THAT SPECIFIC PLAY, based on the observation and judgment of THAT SPECIFIC OFFICIAL, as determined by whatever SPECIFIC RULES CODE governs THAT SPECIFIC GAME. All that matters afterwards is retrieving the ball for the try.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:36:50 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Online CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 456
  • FAN REACTION: +11/-19
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Catch or No Catch
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2017, 12:52:51 PM »
Or spotting the ball at the previous spot for the next down. 😎


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline whkeeler

  • *
  • Posts: 2
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Catch or No Catch
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 01:41:49 PM »
Thanks for all the responses.  Just to follow up, the covering official determined that the receiver had control of the ball since he brought it down and pulled it into his chest and landed with both feet in the endzone before B made the hit which caused the ball to come out.  Therefore he ruled it a touchdown.  This was actually a very critical play as it was in overtime and A had the ball 4th and goal from the 5 yd line and elected not to kick the field goal.  After the touchdown A kicked the extra point to go ahead by 7 and while B was exiting the field after the extra point, a B player yelled profanities at the referee which could be heard by many so he was flagged for unsportsman-like conduct so B started their overtime possession 1st and goal on the 25 yd. line.  B did not score so A won the game.