Author Topic: RPS on backward pass  (Read 1255 times)

Offline br0ckt0n

  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
RPS on backward pass
« on: October 31, 2017, 06:54:08 AM »
Can you have a roughing the passer penalty on the player who throws a backward pass??

Discussion has centered around “passing posture” and “passer is player who throws forward pass” 9-1-9, 2-27 art 5.

Offline Kalle

  • *
  • Posts: 2703
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2017, 07:45:53 AM »
Rule 2-27-5: "The passer is the player who throws a forward pass."

So no, you can't have a roughing the passer against a player who is not the passer.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 491
  • FAN REACTION: +48/-44
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2017, 07:56:27 AM »
By definition, no you can not have "roughing the passer" unless it is a (legal or illegal) forward pass.  But that doesn't mean the thrower is unprotected.  You still apply the same criteria regarding contact on the thrower that you would for a "passer."  It would simply be called a personal foul for unnecessary roughness, at a minimum, to as much as targeting, it if meets those criteria.  The difference, though is in penalty enforcement.  The penalty would be enforced as occurring during a running play.  So, if it were a backward pass made by Team A behind the NZ, then the Basic Spot would be the previous spot, and the most Team A could get would be 15 yards from the previous spot, with an automatic first down.  It would NOT be able to penalized from the end of the last run, as it could on a legal forward pass play.

Robert

Offline Morningrise

  • *
  • Posts: 446
  • FAN REACTION: +17/-5
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 08:29:45 AM »
It's true that Rule 2 defines a "passer" as a player who throws a forward pass. But the newer part of the RPS rule, 9-1-9-b, prohibiting forcible hits at the knee or below, does not require that the opponent actually be a passer, or even become a passer later. He needs only to be in a "passing posture," which could include a stance for throwing a screen pass that is backward instead of forward.

Surprisingly, the penalty enforcement for this flavor of RPS is subject to the same tack-on enforcement as the "traditional" kind, even if a forward pass play does not end up happening. See the unlabeled paragraph following 9-1-9-b at the bottom of page FR-90 (2017 PDF-only rulebook).

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 491
  • FAN REACTION: +48/-44
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 03:14:24 PM »
It's true that Rule 2 defines a "passer" as a player who throws a forward pass. But the newer part of the RPS rule, 9-1-9-b, prohibiting forcible hits at the knee or below, does not require that the opponent actually be a passer, or even become a passer later. He needs only to be in a "passing posture," which could include a stance for throwing a screen pass that is backward instead of forward.

Surprisingly, the penalty enforcement for this flavor of RPS is subject to the same tack-on enforcement as the "traditional" kind, even if a forward pass play does not end up happening. See the unlabeled paragraph following 9-1-9-b at the bottom of page FR-90 (2017 PDF-only rulebook).

All absolutely true, and not offering argument, just realistic discussion.  An A player is not often in a "passing posture" to make a backward pass.  Even though this rule language does not discriminate between a passer and a player that throws a backward pass, it is clearly designed for those situations in which a forward pass is being attempted (or at least contemplated).  A low hit on an A player that throws a backward pass from a "passing posture" is certainly possible, but the chances are very, very low.  But, if it does, the penalty is already maximized. 
The most likely scenario is the A QB that takes the snap, then turns and throws, from a passing posture, a slightly backward pass to a teammate out wide.  The teammate, then, throws a forward pass.  While, or after, the QB is in his passing posture for his backward pass, a B player contacts him forcibly below his knees, with no attempt to grasp the QB with his arms (not blocked or fouled into the QB).  By the penalty language, this would qualify to be enforced at the end of the last run (if the last run ends beyond the NZ, and no change of team possession during the down).

Other backward passes are not going to qualify, because they won't be made by an A player in a passing posture.  Those personal fouls by B could only be enforced from the basic spot related to the run during which the foul occurred. 

While we're discussing, let's talk about fouls against a B passer or thrower.  The rule addresses the passer, and the passer is a player that throws a forward pass (Team A or Team B).  Some time back, the roughing the passer rule required to the pass to be legal, but Redding changed that, to protect Team A passers that intentionally ground the ball, get beyond the NZ when attempting a pass, etc.  A forward pass by B is, of course, illegal, but the passer would have the same protections as an A passer that throws an illegal forward pass.  Similarly, a B player that throws a backward pass would have the same protections as ANY other player that throws a backward pass.  In both cases, however, the penalty could only be enforced at the Basic Spot for the running play during which the foul occurred.  (NOTE: If the pass is illegal, the play type is a running play, not a passing play.)

No need to worry about making a judgment on low hit on a B passer, because blocking below the waist is completely illegal by both teams at that point.

Robert

Offline #92

  • *
  • Posts: 150
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-13
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2017, 03:04:58 AM »
No need to worry about making a judgment on low hit on a B passer, because blocking below the waist is completely illegal by both teams at that point.
Except against the ball carrier...
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 12:27:11 PM by #92 »

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 491
  • FAN REACTION: +48/-44
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 07:11:59 AM »
If he is a passer, he isn't a ball carrier (ball already released).
Robert

Offline mccormicw

  • *
  • Posts: 258
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-3
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 12:05:12 AM »
So we can flag someone for blocking the runner below the waist if he fumbles just before he is hit?

Offline Kalle

  • *
  • Posts: 2703
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2017, 01:06:01 AM »
So we can flag someone for blocking the runner below the waist if he fumbles just before he is hit?

Technically yes. The rules could allow blocking against the runner instead of the ball carrier.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2840
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: RPS on backward pass
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 08:12:48 AM »
Technically yes. The rules could allow blocking against the runner instead of the ball carrier.

This is a pure judgment call since low contact against the ball carrier/runner is legal.  We would need to make a judgment call and determine if the defender had committed to making a low tackle prior to the ball carrier losing possession of the ball (either a fumble, forward pass, or a backward pass).  Certainly, in a case where we have an option type play, and the QB rolling out throws a forward pass, backward pass, or fumbles just before he is tackled low we would not have a flag.  If the contact is well after he no longer has possession then we would probably have a flag.

It's a judgment call that is very much based on the timing of the sequence of events and whether or not we determine that the defender had committed prior to the loss of possession.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel