Author Topic: Goal line pylon  (Read 2612 times)

Offline okhall

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Goal line pylon
« on: October 17, 2017, 01:16:05 PM »
The way the NFHS rule book explains, I read it as the pylon on the goal line is out of bounds.  I am confused about this.  Is it out of bounds when a player dives for it and touches it with the ball, or is it a touchdown?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2017, 02:23:29 PM »
It is a touchdown. The theory is that if the ball has touched the pylon, it has broken the plane of the end zone as well.


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Offline BIG UMP

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2017, 03:47:55 PM »
I have always been taught that the pylon is completely in the EZ and completely OOB in that order.

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aka Shawn

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2017, 04:23:26 PM »
There was a 20 page discussion on this topic several years ago on the old NFHS forum. I wish I could remember it all, but ATLBlue made a good argument about the outside edge being completely oob. His belief was that under certain conditions the ball could touch that side of the pylon and be oob.


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Offline VA Official

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2017, 04:52:57 PM »
The best explanation I’ve heard is that the goal line is wider than the field of play, extending out of bounds 4 inches on each side of the field where the pylons sit (each pylon is 4 inches square). So, 8 inches of the entire goal line are out of bounds. As Big Ump said when you are ruling, goal line first, out of bounds second, but both are true simultaneously.

What I’ve never understood is, what was the reasoning for not placing the pylon on the inbounds side of the goal line? Seems it would make more sense if it was touched by the ball, we know the ball crossed the GL inbounds. Also would eliminate the extremely rare but possible “receiver jumps and his foot hits the pylon then he catches an apparent TD” illegal participation debacle. Just curious about what positives are gained by it being OOB. I know if a loose ball hit it and bounced back toward the field of play that could cause issues. Is that the sole reason?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:08:24 PM by VA Official »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2017, 05:27:12 PM »
Only OTHER problem I see is a runner stepping on it going in.


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« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:33:03 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2017, 05:29:53 PM »
The goal line is actually extended for the benefit of a runner going in. His feet have to be inbounds, but if he’s carrying the ball in his outside hand, even though technically the ball is oob, the touchdown is good, because the ball crossed the plane of the goal line extended.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 06:28:54 PM »
I've always understood the goal line extend BEYOND the sidelines.  NFHS 2-26-3 includes; "When related to a liveball in a runner's possession (touching inbounds) while the ball is over the out-of -bounds area, the goal line includes the extension beyond the sidelines. It doesn't suggest how far, so it seems to depend on a specific runner's reach.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2017, 06:36:59 PM »
That’s the way I understand it


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Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2017, 07:11:12 PM »
First, read caseplay 8.2.1: "Runner A10 dives into the pylon at the intersection of the goal line and sideline and the ball breaks the plane of the goal line. RULING: Touchdown. Assuming the pylon was placed properly, the ball broke the plane of the goal line prior to the touching of the pylon."

As follow up, consider these rules:
  • The last sentence of 1-2-4: "When properly placed, the goal line pylon is out of bounds at the intersection of the sideline and the goal line extended."
  • The last sentence of 4-3-2: "If the ball touches a pylon, it is out of bounds behind the goal line."
  • Second sentence of 2-26-1: "When related to a live ball in a runner's possession (touching inbounds) while the ball is over the out of bounds area, the goal line includes the extension beyond the sidelines."
  • 2-29-1: "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official, that is on or outside the sideline or end line."
  • 2-29-2: "A ball in player possession is out of bounds when the runner or the ball touches anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside a sideline or end line."
  • 4-3-3: "When a runner goes out of bounds, the nearest hash mark is fixed by the yard line through the foremost point of the ball at the time the runner crosses the plane of the sideline."
  • Caseplay 4.3.3A - summary: ball in possession of airborne player is spotted where the ball crosses the sideline

As far as I'm concerned, the first caseplay is the final answer.

One could conceive of a scenario in which a runner had the ball in his outside arm, dove near the pylon, was completely airborne with the ball in his outstretched arm over the sideline, and the ball hits the outside edge of the pylon before the runner touches anything else. One could then make the argument that the ball never broke the plane, and the plane does not extend because the runner was not touching inbounds, and therefore the ball should be marked at the point where it crossed the sideline.

My response to that is something that a veteran official around here is fond of saying (especially to me, as someone whose tendency is to be very technical): "Don't be that good." Live ball in runner's possession touches pylon - ANY surface of the pylon - call the TD and line up for the try. Anything else is asking for trouble.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Goal line pylon
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2017, 07:39:04 PM »
What he said. ^^😎


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Offline VA Official

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2017, 08:09:51 PM »
I've always understood the goal line extend BEYOND the sidelines.  NFHS 2-26-3 includes; "When related to a liveball in a runner's possession (touching inbounds) while the ball is over the out-of -bounds area, the goal line includes the extension beyond the sidelines. It doesn't suggest how far, so it seems to depend on a specific runner's reach.

I agree with this. The extension I was speaking of refers to an airborne player. For them, the goal line is extended to the outside edge of each pylon, which amounts to 8 inches.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2017, 08:18:45 PM »
I agree with this. The extension I was speaking of refers to an airborne player. For them, the goal line is extended to the outside edge of each pylon...
Yet, for a scrimmage kick to score points the ball (airborne, no less), must pass BETWEEN the uprights. There is no extension OVER the pole(s).  :sTiR:
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2017, 10:54:06 AM »
Yet, for a scrimmage kick to score points the ball (airborne, no less), must pass BETWEEN the uprights. There is no extension OVER the pole(s).  :sTiR:
In the murky daze of yesteryear, there was a time when the kick passed OVER the pole the kick was good. I tried to locate it in NFHS Handbook that has a chronology of rule changes, but to no avail. I will scour some old rule books to see if it shows up.

UPDATED : as I set in my Ganges Kahn rocker, enduring the Great Windstorm of 2017......

By lamplight, as a power outage shut the whole state down, I discovered on p.42 of 1972 NFHS Rule Book the following definition of a field-goal (that's how they spelled 'em back then)..........

8-4-1 A field-goal is scored as follows :

  c." The kick shall pass through the opponent's goal (above the crossbar) or directly OVER a goal post."

Today, said article reads : "The kicked ball shall pass BETWEEN  the vertical uprights or the INSIDE of the uprights extended and above the crossbar of the opponent's goal."

I then drank a shot of Bourbon ,turned off the lamp and retired.
 
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 10:02:17 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2017, 07:25:04 AM »
Note my new addition to previous post.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: Goal line pylon
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2017, 08:38:22 AM »
I then drank a shot of Bourbon ,turned off the lamp and retired.

Sounds like my night. Basil Hayden is a good friend of mine.  ;)