Author Topic: Fumble Play  (Read 1647 times)

Offline NCVAReferee

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Fumble Play
« on: November 20, 2017, 05:40:58 PM »
A 1/10 @ B-48.  A44 takes the handoff and runs to the B-40 where he fumbles the ball.  The fumbled ball approaches the sideline at the B-30 and bounces high into the air headed out of bounds.  All in one motion to keep the ball from going out of bounds, B32 jumps, grabs the airborne ball, and throws it forward to B55.  B55 catches the ball in bounds and returns for  TD.  Ruling?

Offline Ump33

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2017, 05:57:05 PM »
By Rule / definition, B32 never completed the Recovery of the fumble because he never Possessed the loose ball. Since he was not in "possession" of the ball, he did not "throw" a Pass. Result of the play is a touchdown and some very confused and upset people.   

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2017, 06:31:02 AM »
I thought we had previously decided that this was Illegal Batting.....

Offline CalhounLJ

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Fumble Play
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2017, 07:11:37 AM »
I thought we had previously decided that this was Illegal Batting.....
If he intentionally provided a new force to a grounded loose ball without possessing it, by definition he has batted it ...


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2017, 10:38:28 AM »
If he intentionally provided a new force to a grounded loose ball without possessing it, by definition he has batted it ...
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Agreed, this is a fumble that has hit the ground and a player without possession and control as noted has "intentionally provided a new force" so we have Illegal Batting.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:41:47 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2017, 10:40:41 AM »
Try as some might, action during a football game is really a bad place to seek, "One size that fits all".  On the other hand, the willingness and courage to judge what is actually being observed, as to how it may comply with a thoroughly understood set of multiple definitions and guidelines can be indispensable.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 10:44:41 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2017, 11:33:22 AM »
Can you bat a fumble in flight? : YES

Can you bat a grounded fumble that then bounced high? : NO (9-7-2)

How does a bat differ from a muff? : BATTING IS INTENTIONAL (2-2) WHILE MUFF IS TRYING TO GRAB(2-27).

Who gets the ball in OP? : B DIDN'T GET BALL WITH CLEAN HANDS, BUT GOT A FLAG. 

Where's the basic spot? : THE END OF THE RUN (B'S 40)
THAT SHOULD BE MARKED BY BEANBAG(S).

When will the clock start? :____________

YOU GUYS ANSWER THAT!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2017, 11:38:44 AM »
because the clock was stopped for the apparent TD, the clock will start on the snap after enforcement.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2017, 12:05:55 PM »
because the clock was stopped for the apparent TD, the clock will start on the snap after enforcement.

Good job, Calhoun,3-4-3d applies  aWaRd aWaRd.

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2017, 01:45:22 PM »
"If he intentionally provided a new force to a grounded loose ball without possessing it, by definition he has batted it ", is not the definition of batting.
 Batting by definition is intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand...this player did not bat the ball.  He secured it and tossed it.  Force has nothing to do with this play as force is only considered from the field of play toward a goal line.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2017, 02:07:29 PM »
I admit the batting was a stretch, and by "force" I simply meant a change of direction, not the application of force as intended by the rule book in determining touchbacks and/or safeties. But I also challenge your definition of securing. By securing, do you mean securing possession? If so, explain whose ball it would be if said player didn't "toss" it? It wouldn't be B's ball unless/until he came down inbounds with it. So therefore, he has not possessed it. Also, what do you mean by "toss?" Did he pass it? or not? To pass it, a player must be in player possession, and to be in player possession, he must control the ball inbounds, and since this player has not controlled the ball inbounds he cannot pass it. What's left?

Online prab

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2017, 03:58:54 PM »
I admit the batting was a stretch, and by "force" I simply meant a change of direction, not the application of force as intended by the rule book in determining touchbacks and/or safeties. But I also challenge your definition of securing. By securing, do you mean securing possession? If so, explain whose ball it would be if said player didn't "toss" it? It wouldn't be B's ball unless/until he came down inbounds with it. So therefore, he has not possessed it. Also, what do you mean by "toss?" Did he pass it? or not? To pass it, a player must be in player possession, and to be in player possession, he must control the ball inbounds, and since this player has not controlled the ball inbounds he cannot pass it. What's left?

TOUCHE!    +1

Offline KWH

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2017, 04:01:46 PM »
A 1/10 @ B-48.  A44 takes the handoff and runs to the B-40 where he fumbles the ball.  The fumbled ball approaches the sideline at the B-30 and bounces high into the air headed out of bounds.  All in one motion to keep the ball from going out of bounds, B32 jumps, grabs the airborne ball, and throws it forward to B55.  B55 catches the ball in bounds and returns for  TD.  Ruling?

I say Rule 2-37 applies!  And;
Since there is no rule prohibiting the particular act B32 performed on this play, it is assumed the ball remains live and no foul has occurred. Touchdown for B.

After-which,  the UNS foul on the Head Coach of A may be enforced on the Try or the Subsequent Kickoff, Captains choice!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2017, 04:16:26 PM »
Language can be a problem.  Since "batting" doesn't quite fit, and "recovered" (necessary to be able to subsequently "pass"), how about "muff" (NFHS 2-27: A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession.")

B32, who has yet to touch the ground OOB seems to have redirected a live ball in flight, that he was unsuccessful in securing possession, (failing to complete catching/possessing, which is required to be able to pass), that was subsequently possessed by a teammate inbounds, who then carried the ball into his team's end zone, for what seems like a Touchdown.

In essence, the B player, who eventually scored the Touchdown, is the one who actually recovered A44's fumble, following it's being muffed by B32.

Clock would start when the succeeding freekick (following the Try) is legally touched.

Offline KWH

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 08:39:54 AM »
I believe B55 carried the ball into his opponents end zone rather than his team's end zone as you suggest Alf.
Kind of a subtle difference according to the Rules Book. 8]

That being said, my ruling agrees with your ruling, Touchdown! Also, because of the Rules Book!
(There is no foul on this play as per Rule 2-37)  ^good
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 08:44:25 AM by KWH »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 11:07:38 AM »
 ^talk ^good ^no ^talk

1-1-6 : If there ain't no rule ,make one up ??? ???

2-37 : If it ain't illegal ,dad gum it, must be legal  :-\

9-10-1 : If that there penalty ain't hard enough, 'spect you otta' make 'er harder hEaDbAnG

AYUH, 'spect this is one where, 3 plays later/on the way home/next day after reading the paper, ya' might begin to think : "Ain't sure I got that dad gum play right :o ??? ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ >:D "

But one thing I'm sure about is that the turkey is in town. So...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING, EVERYONE !

 eAt& eAt& eAt& eAt& tiphat:

Offline KWH

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Re: Fumble Play
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2017, 04:05:49 PM »

 eAt&    Slice the Bird

AYUH!   tiphat: