Author Topic: 2 pre snap fouls  (Read 3087 times)

Offline FLAHL

  • *
  • Posts: 704
  • FAN REACTION: +43/-9
2 pre snap fouls
« on: November 26, 2017, 02:44:02 PM »
Had this on Friday night:

B has 12 on the field, and one of them is racing to the sideline to get off before the snap.

As the HL is grabbing his flag for illegal substitution, A false starts.

Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't. So, what do we have?

A) call the foul for IS only,
B) call the false start only,
C) call both, and offset them

None of those options felt right. We chose C.  What do you think?

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3839
  • FAN REACTION: +327/-243
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2017, 04:02:28 PM »
Sounds suspiciously like the Iron Bowl. ???
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 503
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-20
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2017, 05:33:49 PM »
AS the WH, if I have one flag on the field, I'm working with it, whichever one it is. If I have two, I'm offsetting and replaying.

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-39
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2017, 08:23:51 PM »

As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.


Online prab

  • *
  • Posts: 572
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-41
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2017, 10:03:19 PM »
As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.

Sounds right to me!

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2017, 10:12:07 PM »
As described in the OP, Illegal Substitution (The 3-7-4 Version) is a foul that can only occur concurrent with a legal snap.  Since there was No legal snap = There can be no foul for IS

Per 10-1-2, A False Start causes the ball to remain dead.

All you had was a False Start on A.
I would respectfully disagree.  The substitute has 3 seconds to begin to leave the field after being replaced, by HS rules, regardless of the snap, unless it occurs prior to his getting off the field.  The ball does not have to be snapped to receive a foul for IS.  If there was less than 3 seconds elapsed before the whistle for a false start, then there would be no foul.  If the flags came out at the same time, then offset.  IS can be a dead ball foul.

Offline ChicagoZebra

  • *
  • Posts: 135
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2017, 10:33:57 PM »
You cannot offset non-15 yards dead ball penalties in this way. There is no rule support for that. Pick one and go with it. I'd probably lean towards the false start.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 503
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-20
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2017, 07:21:00 AM »
You cannot offset non-15 yards dead ball penalties in this way. There is no rule support for that. Pick one and go with it. I'd probably lean towards the false start.
Sure you can. Well, technically you are correct. All dead ball fouls that are not 15 yds are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence. But, if the officials cannot determine who fouled first, then even those can be offset and the down remains the same.

I can think of two situations off the top:
A and B both jump into the neutral zone at the exact same time. Officials can not determine who went first-wave them off and down remains same

After 3rd down both teams sub punt teams in. Both send too many. Officials observe 12 in formation on both teams. Two flags. Penalties offset.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 08:18:12 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2602
  • FAN REACTION: +320/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2017, 08:39:39 AM »
IMHO....
  (1) IF 12 were still in the huddle when the FS occurred, you would have to decide :
  (a) had the replaced B player used up his 3 second hesitation ?? If yes = enforce in order of occurrence - B fouled first, could create new series if less than 5 YTG.
  (b) IF the replaced  B player was hightailing toward the sideline, or his 3 second countdown wasn't up when FS occurred = FS only.
  (c) IF the FS & IS occurred simultaneously (my choice over "a") =they cancel (case book support).

 (2) IF both teams simultaneously encroach , you would have FS on A/K as that would precede their entry into the neutral zone.

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-39
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2017, 09:12:50 AM »
IMHO....
  (1) IF 12 were still in the huddle when the FS occurred, you would have to decide :
  (a) had the replaced B player used up his 3 second hesitation ?? If yes = enforce in order of occurrence - B fouled first, could create new series if less than 5 YTG.
  (b) IF the replaced  B player was hightailing toward the sideline, or his 3 second countdown wasn't up when FS occurred = FS only.
  (c) IF the FS & IS occurred simultaneously (my choice over "a") =they cancel (case book support).

 (2) IF both teams simultaneously encroach , you would have FS on A/K as that would precede their entry into the neutral zone.


Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2017, 09:16:28 AM by KWH »

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 207
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-2
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2017, 09:33:17 AM »

Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.

+1

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2017, 08:53:36 PM »

Again, As described in the OP, Ralph's option b occurred - so False Start only
Restated for JS in SC - The Three second rule is not applicable in the OP situation because the the replaced player is already began running off the field.


I disagree.  The OP does not indicate if the replaced player had been on the field for more than his allowed 3 seconds before he realized that he had to leave, but does say "Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't." So, what do we have?  Since we have always been instructed not to reach for a flag until we have a foul, I read the OP to say that B must have exceeded his allowed 3 seconds before he starts to depart, therefore has fouled before the A false start since the HL is already reaching for his flag when the false start occurs.  The fact that the player is heading off as he reaches for his flag is irrelevant.

I'd have A) Call the foul for IS only.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 04:30:11 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 503
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-20
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2017, 09:03:28 PM »
I disagree.  The OP does not indicate if the replaced player had been on the field for more than his allowed 3 seconds before he realized that he had to leave, but does say "Ideally, we should have killed it for IS earlier, but we didn't." So, what do we have?  Since we have always been instructed not to reach for a flag until we have a foul, I read the OP to say that B must have exceeded his allowed 3 seconds before he starts to depart, therefore has fouled before the A false start since the HL is already reaching for his flag when the false start occurs.  The fact that the player is heading off as he reaches for his flag is irrelevant.

I'd have A) Call the foul for IS only.
I have to agree with this. If the official is reaching for his flag he has already determined a foul has taken place. Whatever happens after that is irrelevant


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline BIG UMP

  • *
  • Posts: 175
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-1
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 02:08:50 PM »
I don't see IS here.  If he is racing to get off the field before the snap he's not in the "formation" so therefore he is trying to beat a live ball IS or IP foul at the snap.
Big Ump
aka Shawn

"EVERY JOB IS A SELF-PORTRAIT OF THE PERSON WHO DID IT.  AUTOGRAPH YOUR WORK WITH EXCELLENCE."~unknown

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2017, 09:02:29 PM »
I don't see IS here.  If he is racing to get off the field before the snap he's not in the "formation" so therefore he is trying to beat a live ball IS or IP foul at the snap.
Except that's not the applicable NFHS rule that applies.  If the HL in the OP has determined that Team B has had 12 players on the field for more than 3 seconds without anyone headed off the field and the snap is eminent we have an IS foul.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2017, 09:08:41 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2017, 09:12:05 PM »
See Rule 3-7-1:   ...... replaced players shall begin to leave the field within 3 seconds.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 02:56:35 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 336
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-39
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2017, 11:45:43 AM »
Except that's not the applicable NFHS rule that applies.  If the HL in the OP has determined that Team B has had 12 players on the field for more than 3 seconds without anyone headed off the field and the snap is eminent we have an IS foul.

Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)

Online VA Official

  • *
  • Posts: 174
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2017, 02:10:55 PM »
Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)

You missed the last sentence of 2-32-12 which provides 5 other ways in 2-32-15 that a player can become a replaced player. The last sentence of 2-32-12: "A player is also replaced when an entering substitute becomes a player." 5 ways to become a player are listed in 2-32-15. If an entering substitute does any of those 5 things, another player on his team has simultaneously become a replaced player.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2017, 03:06:44 PM »
Awh but then there is that dad-gummed pesky Rules Book that keeps getting in the way of a good ball game.

You are hanging your hat on he HL enforcing Rule 3-7-1 (The three second Rule)

But 3-7-1 clearly includes ...Upon meeting the criteria of 2-32-12...

2-32-12 tells us a player does not become a "Replaced player" until he has been notified by a substitute that he is to leave the field.
Does your HL have positive knowledge that the Substitute notified the Replaced player? 
The generally recognized interpretation is the HL can't really start the 3 second clock until he has such positive knowledge.  And, since generally speaking, an official would normally have such positive knowledge, one should pass on the flag! (Unless the snap is imminent!)

Once there are 12 players on the field then by rule 2-32-12 it is clear that we have 11 players and 1 "replaced player" on the field.  The "replaced player" whoever he may be must then start to depart within the three seconds per 3-7-1.  It is not our responsibility to figure out which player that is, if the replacement player is on his side of the NZ, and is in formation, then one other player simply must start to depart.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline refjeff

  • *
  • Posts: 61
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-17
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 54
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 01:18:03 PM »
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Then why do we call IS as a dead ball foul before the snap on A and B? 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 2846
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-101
  • High School (MA)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 01:39:35 PM »
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Actually the play in the OP is a Dead Ball Illegal Substitution.  Once the HL commits to throwing his flag we have a DB foul, therefore can't have a False Start.  The fact that the flag isn't on the ground yet is immaterial.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline SouthGARef

  • *
  • Posts: 261
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-16
Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 02:39:34 PM »
Sure you can. Well, technically you are correct. All dead ball fouls that are not 15 yds are enforced separately and in the order of occurrence. But, if the officials cannot determine who fouled first, then even those can be offset and the down remains the same.

Except, of course, if this situation happens inside the 10 yard line and now we have problems. Simply canceling out the yardage and "enforcing" both fouls isn't an option, either. This is the very situation that happened in a game here last week. I haven't seen it, but I heard about it.

Personally, I go with the false start. If the Team B player was on his way out, that makes me believe that the substitution process was completed immediately. If it hadn't the flag would've been thrown already. Penalizing Team B for an illegal sub with one of their players attempting to get off the field and before the ball is snapped is a bad look and doesn't sit easy with me. I don't like enforcing both - because *something* had to have happened first - and the false start makes more sense to me.

Also think this is one of those "you'd have to see it" discussions.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 503
  • FAN REACTION: +13/-20
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 03:59:21 PM »
It's a false start.  B has until the ball is snapped to get of the field.
Rule reference?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline PABJNR

  • *
  • Posts: 65
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2017, 07:16:11 PM »
3-7-4 During a down a replaced player or substitute who attempts unsuccessfully to leave the field and who does not participate in or affect the play, constitutes an illegal substitution.

2-7-1 A down is action which starts with a legal snap....

Of course this only applies if 3-7-1 has not been violated


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk