Author Topic: 2 pre snap fouls  (Read 3480 times)

Offline CalhounLJ

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2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2017, 07:15:05 AM »
Which is precisely my point. There is no rule that states that B has until the snap to get off the field. He has 3 seconds to begin to leave. IF the snap catches him as he attempts to leave, AND he doesn’t participate, the foul is IS, Not IP. Thats the intent of 3-7-4. Also, this applies to A and B, not just B. 


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Offline CalhounLJ

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2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2017, 07:38:54 AM »
Except, of course, if this situation happens inside the 10 yard line and now we have problems. Simply canceling out the yardage and "enforcing" both fouls isn't an option, either. This is the very situation that happened in a game here last week. I haven't seen it, but I heard about it.

Personally, I go with the false start. If the Team B player was on his way out, that makes me believe that the substitution process was completed immediately. If it hadn't the flag would've been thrown already. Penalizing Team B for an illegal sub with one of their players attempting to get off the field and before the ball is snapped is a bad look and doesn't sit easy with me. I don't like enforcing both - because *something* had to have happened first - and the false start makes more sense to me.

Also think this is one of those "you'd have to see it" discussions.
I agree with this. As I said earlier, if I’m the WH and only have one flag, I’m going with it. I can see where the false start bailed the defense out on this play, especially if the 3 seconds had not previously expired. I could also be ok with my guy telling me he had IS before the false start


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Offline refjeff

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2017, 07:44:34 AM »
Which is precisely my point. There is no rule that states that B has until the snap to get off the field. He has 3 seconds to begin to leave. IF the snap catches him as he attempts to leave, AND he doesn’t participate, the foul is IS, Not IP. Thats the intent of 3-7-4. Also, this applies to A and B, not just B. 
  OK, I said B has until the snap to get off the field because on this play it was a B player that was trying to get off the field.  If it had been an A player I would have said that instead.

Offline CalhounLJ

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2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2017, 08:21:12 AM »
  OK, I said B has until the snap to get off the field because on this play it was a B player that was trying to get off the field.  If it had been an A player I would have said that instead.
Gotcha. So you’re assuming the 3 second rule has not been violated ?


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Offline refjeff

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 10:07:14 AM »
Gotcha. So you’re assuming the 3 second rule has not been violated ?
  Correct, I am not assuming anything that was not in the original post.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2017, 10:22:32 AM »
  Correct, I am not assuming anything that was not in the original post.
This is the problem. The OP reads as if the HL has decided the 3 second rule may have expired
"As the HL is grabbing his flag for illegal substitution, A false starts."

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2017, 01:02:57 PM »
IMHO, once a DB foul occurs , the only DB fouls that could follow are PF & USC. In the OP, the HL was making the call when the FS occurred. The crew needs to decide :

(1) IF the IS had occurred BEFORE the FS, the FS never happened;
(2) IF it couldn't be determine which occurred first, they should cancel;
(3) IF the FS occurred first, the IS never happened.

An example of applying "order of occurrence :

(1) Bubba (OL) tips over in the NZ before the snap;
(2) Tugboat (DL) then kicks Bubba in the babymakers;
(3) As Tugboat sails out of the game, march sNiCkErS off 10 against B; 
UNLESS :
 (a) A was inside their own 10;
 (b) B committed the encroachment followed by A's PF with less than 5 yds to go, B's foul would create a first down UNLESS they were inside B'10. You should  sNiCkErS step of the first 5, signal #8, then step off 15 in the other direction, than set the stakes.

If you are still confused, may I recommend a Clam Flats Martini - served at many coastal Maine watering holes :)

AND REMEMBER...

WHO, WHAT, WHEN,

Offline refjeff

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2017, 10:25:59 AM »
  (2) IF it couldn't be determine which occurred first, they should cancel; 

Actually, as the R on my crew this is is what I would have done.  No harm, no foul, let's play ball.  Everybody's happy.

On our crew, if either team has 12 in the huddle or formation we are going to tell them "You've got 12" and give them a chance to correct it.  If the snap is imminent we will blow the whistle and penalize for IS.  If a replaced player is hustling to get off the field we will give them every opportunity to do so, and the wing is not going to look too closely over his shoulder.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 06:14:08 AM by refjeff »

Offline prab

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2017, 10:45:36 AM »
If a replaced player is hustling to get off the field and will give them every opportunity to do so, and the wing is not going to look too-closely over his shoulder.

I realize that this is a bit of a digression, but while working as BJ, I actually observed the following;

B12 was 12th man and was hustling to get off of the field.  HL was positioned about 2 yards onto the field on his side (this was an acceptable practice several years ago).  As soon as B12 passed the HL on his way to the bench area, HL ignored him.  LJ then tossed IS flag for B12 not having gotten off of the field before the snap.  (Air Force fighter pilots would kill for eyesight that good!) Thereafter, LJ's career took a nosedive.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2 pre snap fouls
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 12:09:13 PM »
I realize that this is a bit of a digression, but while working as BJ, I actually observed the following;

B12 was 12th man and was hustling to get off of the field.  HL was positioned about 2 yards onto the field on his side (this was an acceptable practice several years ago).  As soon as B12 passed the HL on his way to the bench area, HL ignored him.  LJ then tossed IS flag for B12 not having gotten off of the field before the snap.  (Air Force fighter pilots would kill for eyesight that good!) Thereafter, LJ's career took a nosedive. 

We all "Reap what we sow", including LJs