Author Topic: Penalty and IW on last play of the period  (Read 704 times)

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« on: December 12, 2017, 01:28:46 PM »
A12 is running with the ball beyond the neutral zone at the B-40 when he throws an illegal forward pass to A81 at the B-35. A81 is running clear towards the end zone when an inadvertent whistle occurs. Time expires during the play.

Do we extend the period?

Offline bossman72

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2017, 01:38:16 PM »
I would say no, since enforcement of a foul trumps the IW rule, and the enforcement of the foul includes LOD.  Therefore, no extension.

But I see what you're getting at with this play. Makes you think!

Offline Ump33

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2017, 02:08:43 PM »
I would say no, since enforcement of a foul trumps the IW rule, and the enforcement of the foul includes LOD.  Therefore, no extension.

But I see what you're getting at with this play. Makes you think!
+1 ... 3-3-3a and 3-3-4b(3) specify no extension

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 07:30:26 AM »
Agree with Bossman & UMP33 , now a tweak. Same as OP BUT in lieu of IP, A12 keeps the ball and as he breaks toward paydirt, he begins to "moonwalk" at B's 10. This occurred before whistle....

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 07:41:00 AM »
Assuming that A12 ends up in the EZ, TD comes off the board, we've got a USC enforced at the 10 (where he started his "moonwalk").  Since this is a USC the period is not extended, game over (3.3.4.b.1).

If we still have an IW before the "moonwalk" then I'd have a simple IW, replay the down, extend for 1 untimed down. If the "moonwalk" occurs before the IW, then game over. 
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 07:45:26 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline Ump33

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2017, 08:02:57 AM »
Assuming that A12 ends up in the EZ, TD comes off the board, we've got a USC enforced at the 10 (where he started his "moonwalk").  Since this is a USC the period is not extended, game over (3.3.4.b.1).

If we still have an IW before the "moonwalk" then I'd have a simple IW, replay the down, extend for 1 untimed down. If the "moonwalk" occurs before the IW, then game over.
Why would the game be over?
I read "Ralph's tweak" as follows ... A12 moonwalks at the 10. Back Judge throws his flag and in a bit of excitement, blows his whistle as A12 is at he 5 yard line. Due to the IW, the EOR is the 5 yard line and Team A has the option to replay or take the ball at the EOR. Since there was an IW, the period is extended and the UNS on A12 is enforced from the 5 yard line which is the succeeding spot.  Am I missing something?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2017, 10:17:09 AM »
Good call, UMP 33, you win the aWaRd....

The location of the ball at the time of the tweet would determine the enforcement spot as USC is a succeeding spot foul. A could choose an UTD at the 20 (assuming IW occurred when A 12 was at B's 5) or to replay the down at A's 45.

If there wasn't a tweet, the TD would stand and B could choose for the PAT from B's 18 or for A to kickoff from their own 25.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2017, 10:19:39 AM »
Why would the game be over?
I read "Ralph's tweak" as follows ... A12 moonwalks at the 10. Back Judge throws his flag and in a bit of excitement, blows his whistle as A12 is at he 5 yard line. Due to the IW, the EOR is the 5 yard line and Team A has the option to replay or take the ball at the EOR. Since there was an IW, the period is extended and the UNS on A12 is enforced from the 5 yard line which is the succeeding spot.  Am I missing something?

An accepted penalty trumps the IW, and 3-3-4 states the period is not extended on an accepted penalty for USC. So, while A does get the choice of where to put the ball in play, the choice is moot because B will certainly accept the penalty, thereby ending the game.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:21:24 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 12:13:21 PM »
IF there wasn't an IW, an USC on a play where time expired would end the period because it is treated as a dead ball foul- succeeding spot enforcement.

Where there was an IW on the play, an untimed down would occur either by taking the ball at the spot of IW or replaying the down.

The USC would now be enforced regardless if it occurred before or after the IW. Consider A's coach's head fell off after he was told the TD didn't count. A would still get an UTD, it would just be 15 yards further.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 05:12:20 AM »
Why would the game be over?
I read "Ralph's tweak" as follows ... A12 moonwalks at the 10. Back Judge throws his flag and in a bit of excitement, blows his whistle as A12 is at he 5 yard line. Due to the IW, the EOR is the 5 yard line and Team A has the option to replay or take the ball at the EOR. Since there was an IW, the period is extended and the UNS on A12 is enforced from the 5 yard line which is the succeeding spot.  Am I missing something?
So need some clarification here.  Our guidance for last year (2016) and this year has been that if the act that we deem to be flagrant enough to be ruled a USC clearly and without question occurs before the TD is scored it shall be treated as a live ball foul.  That takes the points off the board and we enforce the foul from the basic spot.  If we have an IW after the USC but before the TD we are enforcing the USC as a live ball foul which by rule cancels A's IW options, no replay of the down and game over.  Is that not correct under current rules?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Kalle

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 05:30:39 AM »
So need some clarification here.  Our guidance for last year (2016) and this year has been that if the act that we deem to be flagrant enough to be ruled a USC clearly and without question occurs before the TD is scored it shall be treated as a live ball foul.  That takes the points off the board and we enforce the foul from the basic spot.  If we have an IW after the USC but before the TD we are enforcing the USC as a live ball foul which by rule cancels A's IW options, no replay of the down and game over.  Is that not correct under current rules?

Did NF change the USC to be a live-ball foul? I've missed this (not being a NF official).

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 05:50:15 AM »
Did NF change the USC to be a live-ball foul? I've missed this (not being a NF official).
I'm not aware of any clear rule book change, but our preseason instructions have been pretty clear that if the USC is clearly flagrant and during live ball action to treat it as a live ball foul.  The fact that some of us are doing both NCAA and NFHS games on a regular basis does tend to get a bit confusing, but our 2016 preseason NFHS guidance on this was pretty clear IMHO.  That being said, we havn't had any actual USC calls where we needed to take points off the board in the last 2 years.
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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 06:07:21 AM »
So need some clarification here.  Our guidance for last year (2016) and this year has been that if the act that we deem to be flagrant enough to be ruled a USC clearly and without question occurs before the TD is scored it shall be treated as a live ball foul.

I don't think this is one of the "by state adoption" options.  Is your state using this on an experimental basis?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 07:14:10 AM »
The NFHS still treats an USC occurring during a live ball as a dead ball foul.

It is my understanding that a state can "strengthen" a rule. A prime example is a disqualifying foul as no where in the NFHS book does it suggest that such can carry on to succeeding game(s). However, most states do have rules in place governing this. IMHO, enforcing an USC as a live ball foul would be as such.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 10:54:12 AM »
I'll do some checking on this during the "off-season" to get some further info.  We haven't had a call like the OP here in a game yet so we havev't had any feedback on the live ball USC issue to date.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2017, 01:06:09 PM »
IF there wasn't an IW, an USC on a play where time expired would end the period because it is treated as a dead ball foul- succeeding spot enforcement.

Where there was an IW on the play, an untimed down would occur either by taking the ball at the spot of IW or replaying the down.

The USC would now be enforced regardless if it occurred before or after the IW. Consider A's coach's head fell off after he was told the TD didn't count. A would still get an UTD, it would just be 15 yards further.

Hope that makes it a little clearer.

Not really. I’m getting confused over the statement regarding the IW that states the IW is ignored if a penalty is accepted. Doesn’t that mean the IW isn’t applied to extend the period? Especially coupled with the fact that 3-3-4 specifically states the period is not extended on a USC foul.
I need help. (In more ways than one). 😂


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2017, 06:15:23 AM »
Not really. Iím getting confused over the statement regarding the IW that states the IW is ignored if a penalty is accepted. Doesnít that mean the IW isnít applied to extend the period? Especially coupled with the fact that 3-3-4 specifically states the period is not extended on a USC foul.
I need help. (In more ways than one). 😂

I was taught that when you have a USC foul, you administer the play as if the foul hadn't happened.  You then apply the USC penalty.

In this case, the IW causes extension of the period for one untimed down from either the previous spot, or from the IW spot.  The USC is then enforced from that spot.

Offline VA Official

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2017, 12:49:28 PM »
I was taught that when you have a USC foul, you administer the play as if the foul hadn't happened.  You then apply the USC penalty.

In this case, the IW causes extension of the period for one untimed down from either the previous spot, or from the IW spot.  The USC is then enforced from that spot.

By the letter of the law, Calhoun is right and this is not an untimed down.

3-3-4: "A period shall not be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expires: b. There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for: 1. unsportsmanlike fouls." The USC foul "occurred during a down in which time expires" (even though it's enforced at the succeeding spot as a DB foul, it occurred during the down), so there is no untimed down.

Now if you want to argue what the intent of listing an USC foul under 3-3-4b was, you may have a case for an untimed down.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 12:55:14 PM by VA Official »

Offline KWH

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Re: Penalty and IW on last play of the period
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2017, 01:21:33 PM »
1- The illegal Forward Pass takes precedence over the IW, when the penalty is accepted.  (4-2-3d)
Restated, if the penalty is accepted the IW is discarded and, since IFP contains a loss of down the game is over. (See Casebook 3.3.4 SITUATION A)
2- Since the IW is discarded, 3-3-3c is not applicable.
3- The moon walk is a dead ball foul. Dead ball fouls are always enforced from the succeeding spot.  There is no succeeding spot, as the game is over. This foul goes unpunished unless act is considered flagrant whereas the offending player is disqualified and then, the game is over.
4-The Try shall not be attempted unless the point(s) would effect the outcome of playoff qualifying. (8-3-1 Exception)
5- Only if the Try is necessary as in 8-3-1, would the USC penalty be enforced on the try.

If you really want to muddy the watters and test your brain, read 8.2.2 SITUATION C
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 01:12:59 PM by KWH »