Author Topic: Rule changes are here  (Read 4249 times)

Offline scrounge

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 02:01:11 PM »
Why can't the 40/25 clock be an option by state association adoption? It's not unprecedented to have different timing rules in different states - plenty of states in basketball use a shot clock or use halves vs. quarters. Why not just allow it for those who wish it? If it doesn't work for Maine, no need to force it. If Indiana really wants it, let them have it. I'm sure the small % of officials near border areas who work in multiple states will be able to adjust - they already likely deal with different mechanics already, as many states modify/replace the standard ones.

Offline KWH

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 02:13:37 PM »
...Overall, I don't feel that a significant percentage of games push 3:00 to the extent that we need rule changes to fix it. Most of the time it's a combination of a ton of fouls AND the crew lollygagging a bit in the enforcement of the penalties. We as officials could probably speed up our dead ball mechanics to shorten total game time before we worry about making rule changes...

+1
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 02:15:08 PM by KWH »

Offline Curious

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 03:04:07 PM »
The substitution question applies whether you are using a 40/25 clock or a regular 25-second clock. What about the 40/25 clock do you think makes this different? Under current HS rules there is no allowance for matching up. Yes the play clock starts and runs while the chains are moving. Why wouldn't it? It doesn't take that long for the chains to move even if they are sow. If you are going to start both the game and play clock after an administrative delay (i.e. penalty enforcement, injury time out), then you would definitely blow your whistle. With the 40-second clock, when you start the game clock after a first down you usually only wind the game clock with no whistle. But there is nothing with using a quick whistle in that case. I know we've gone back and forth on that in NCAA, and I'm not sure there is still a consistent answer today.

How was your experience with the 40-second clock last year? Was it the first year of your experiment?

In reverse order: The experiment last year (our first) was VERY limited. required approval (from game to game) by the State and opponents, and was met with skepticism by most schools. NONE of our crew's games used it.  This year, I'm advised that there will be a big push to use it. Personally, I like the idea; but it has raised some questions...

The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).

As for the other mechanics questions, I'm interested to know how crews in areas using the 40 second clock have adapted.  Most of our HS crews are not comprised, in some part, by NCAA officials; so, absent some guidance - at least early in the season - I can see possibilities of some mistakes in proper clock management.       

Offline Magician

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 08:17:32 PM »
In reverse order: The experiment last year (our first) was VERY limited. required approval (from game to game) by the State and opponents, and was met with skepticism by most schools. NONE of our crew's games used it.  This year, I'm advised that there will be a big push to use it. Personally, I like the idea; but it has raised some questions...

The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).

As for the other mechanics questions, I'm interested to know how crews in areas using the 40 second clock have adapted.  Most of our HS crews are not comprised, in some part, by NCAA officials; so, absent some guidance - at least early in the season - I can see possibilities of some mistakes in proper clock management.       
I know the substitution rules are different since I work both codes. I'm just saying the substitution rule and 40-second clock don't have anything to do with each other. You could have the substitution rule with a 25-second clock too. Why does it matter when the play clock started if there are 15 seconds left on a play clock and the offense subs? I could maybe see an argument if the offense goes no huddle and subs right away as they are going to the line of scrimmage. It's possible the ball could be ready for play a couple seconds sooner with a 40-second play clock, but if that is the case it would affect any possible fouls by holding up the offense. That was my point. I think the substitution rule could easily apply in either play clock situation. I believe they came into the NCAA rule book about the same time, but I've never heard that one caused the other.

As for mechanics changes, here are a couple I can think of:
* Give a dead ball signal by raising your hand over your head with an open palm if the run ends in bounds short of the line to gain. This indicates to the play clock operator to reset the play clock and start it. In our experiment we have to give the dead ball signal even if we stop the clock for a first down or run OOB or signal an incomplete pass. It looks silly but they currently require it.
* There is no ready for play whistle to start the play clock so the ball is considered ready for play when the umpire steps away from the ball. He asks the snapper to give him a second to get clear of the defense. It's very rare for the offense to be that ready the instant the umpire steps away from the ball. Make sure all officials on the crew are ready before stepping away.
* If you are chain crews are very slow they may have to speed up a little. The first year of our experiment the IHSAA was communicating the chain crew needed to run after a first down, but unless it's a very long play they don't need to move any faster than a slow jog.
* We were given the option of having balls for both teams on both sides and asking both teams' ball boys to help with ball rotation. We also brought all changes of possession in from the home side for consistency purposes. We did have some occasional issues with no balls on one side, but we used our radios to communicate and correct the situation quickly. This didn't create any new issues with ball boys. We still had some of the same attention issues, but it wasn't terrible.
* Your pace should otherwise be similar to what you have. If you were a really slow crew you may not like the new faster (to you) pace.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 09:08:10 PM »
The substitution issue is, respectfully, NOT the same in HS as in the NCAA - the difference being the match-up requirement and associated penalties. IMHO the "wisdom" of holding the snap on late substitutions by A the NCAA rule needs to be adopted if we're going to use the 40 second clock.  Without it, the defense could be put at an unintended disadvantage (or why else is it part of the NCAA rule).     

I'm with Magician.  I think they're mutually exclusive.  You asked why is it part of the NCAA rule - the substitution rule was created for substitution.  It has nothing to do with the play clock.

In fact, to give you a great example, the 40 sec play clock was adopted in 2008-ish by NCAA.  Here is a copy of the 2005 rule book that used the 25 sec ready for play and also had the iron-cross substitution rule.  So there is an example that they have nothing to do with each other.
https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-4479-2005-ncaa-football-rules-and-interpretations.aspx

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2018, 07:48:55 AM »
Why can't the 40/25 clock be an option by state association adoption? It's not unprecedented to have different timing rules in different states - plenty of states in basketball use a shot clock or use halves vs. quarters. Why not just allow it for those who wish it? If it doesn't work for Maine, no need to force it. If Indiana really wants it, let them have it. I'm sure the small % of officials near border areas who work in multiple states will be able to adjust - they already likely deal with different mechanics already, as many states modify/replace the standard ones.
It is now my understanding that for "state's rights" it would have to be incorporated in the proposal base. Examples : 1-1-7, 3-1-1 note, 3-1-2,3-1-3 etc. I had a proposal in to make the 40 sec clock via state adoption  but was explained that protocol would require that to be voted on ONLY IF the basic proposal failed. The basic proposal did fail and the state adoption failed also. Hope that's not too confusing.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2018, 09:25:50 AM »
We need the match-up substitution rule regardless of whether we go to the 40 second play clock or not. It makes more sense with the 40, but it needs to happen.

Here's why: https://youtu.be/P5VIgzalz50

Especially in HS with the wider hash marks, offenses can gain an absolutely HUGE competitive advantage like this. I'm honestly shocked we don't see it more than we do already. With the ball on the offensive team's hash and after practicing this for a week, the offensive team can easily substitute an entire unit on and meet all the requirements of the rule book while the defensive team has to try and do so late and also has to come all the way 2/3 across the field. They have no chance. It's either take a timeout or take an illegal substitution penalty.

In my opinion, the *only* good thing that would come with the 40 second play clock is a substitution match-up rule.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2018, 09:52:00 AM »
We need the match-up substitution rule regardless of whether we go to the 40 second play clock or not. It makes more sense with the 40, but it needs to happen.

Here's why: https://youtu.be/P5VIgzalz50

This is still a legal tactic in NFHS?  pi1eOn

Pretty please implement some kind of a match-up rule, if the NCAA version is not good enough...

Offline scrounge

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2018, 10:09:07 AM »
I thought the college substitution rule didn't apply on 4th down anyway, as B is expected to know that kicking teams may be running on?

With HS officials and 5 man crews, I don't think we need nor can reliably expect to administer a substitution matchup rule.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2018, 10:40:10 AM »
I thought the college substitution rule didn't apply on 4th down anyway, as B is expected to know that kicking teams may be running on?

With HS officials and 5 man crews, I don't think we need nor can reliably expect to administer a substitution matchup rule.

It doesn't apply on a mayday field goal with time running out.  It does apply to normal 4th down situations.

5 man crew should have nothing to do with ability to administer.  R, U, H, and L do the majority of the work for subs in a 7/8 man crew.  Texas and Europe has this rule and mainly work 5 man...

Offline scrounge

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 10:46:25 AM »
It doesn't apply on a mayday field goal with time running out.  It does apply to normal 4th down situations.

5 man crew should have nothing to do with ability to administer.  R, U, H, and L do the majority of the work for subs in a 7/8 man crew.  Texas and Europe has this rule and mainly work 5 man...

Ok, thanks....I still don't think it's a big enough issue to worry about, but not opposed to it.

Offline refjeff

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 08:27:15 AM »
They have no chance. It's either take a timeout or take an illegal substitution penalty.
  Their third choice is to coach their kids on how to play defense, or in this case defend a punt, with the eleven they have on the field.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 09:25:47 AM »
  Their third choice is to coach their kids on how to play defense, or in this case defend a punt, with the eleven they have on the field.

I suppose. But that leaves the fact that the offensive team gets to sub on their special personnel while the defensive team can not. It's a pretty clear hole in our rules that can easily be fixed. Why leave one team at a disadvantage simply because we're too lazy to fix our rule book?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2018, 12:49:26 PM »
I suppose. But that leaves the fact that the offensive team gets to sub on their special personnel while the defensive team can not. It's a pretty clear hole in our rules that can easily be fixed. Why leave one team at a disadvantage simply because we're too lazy to fix our rule book?

A BASIC objective of the game of football, is creating advantages and being prepared to avoid disadvantages, that the rules consider acceptable.  Illegal/unearned/excessive advantages are illegal, and should, if necessary, require intervention to prohibit them. "Kicking situations" usually are somewhat predictable, evolving from common unfolding game conditions that Coaches should be prepared to deal with, in whatever manner best suited for their available resources.

Even in surprise situations, responding to a "kicking situation" falls well within the standards of basic preparation.

It is the BASIC objective of Offenses to seek legal advantage over opponents, and the responsibility of Defenses to be prepared to neutralize legal disadvantages they are confronted with.   
 

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 01:41:12 PM »
A BASIC objective of the game of football, is creating advantages and being prepared to avoid disadvantages, that the rules consider acceptable.  Illegal/unearned/excessive advantages are illegal, and should, if necessary, require intervention to prohibit them. "Kicking situations" usually are somewhat predictable, evolving from common unfolding game conditions that Coaches should be prepared to deal with, in whatever manner best suited for their available resources.

Even in surprise situations, responding to a "kicking situation" falls well within the standards of basic preparation.

It is the BASIC objective of Offenses to seek legal advantage over opponents, and the responsibility of Defenses to be prepared to neutralize legal disadvantages they are confronted with.

I'm not swayed.

Every other level of football has, correctly, decided that allowing the offensive team to quickly substitute personnel without allowing adequate time for the defensive team to match up creates an unfair advantage. And for the college game, a very real factor in that decision was the safety of the athletes - if defensive players are forced to remain on the field because their coaches can not substitute them off the field, they are at a higher risk of injury. That should be a primary concern here in the high school game as well.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2018, 02:11:13 PM »
I'm not swayed.

 if defensive players are forced to remain on the field because their coaches can not substitute them off the field, they are at a higher risk of injury. That should be a primary concern here in the high school game as well.

It seems a PRIMARY responsibility of any Coach, would be to be aware when ANY player might be, "at a higher risk of injury" due to fatigue, or the length of time they've been playing REGARDLESS of what type play might be anticipated, and under normal conditions that have adequate time to substitute a player (if properly prepared to do so).

There are unique physical, tactical and objective differences between "Football" played at different levels (Interscholastic, Collegiate, Professional) and Kick formation Match-Up" is high on that list.  Whats "good for the goose" doesn't necessarily apply to the "gander".

Offline CalhounLJ

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Rule changes are here
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2018, 07:37:29 PM »
It seems a PRIMARY responsibility of any Coach, would be to be aware when ANY player might be, "at a higher risk of injury" due to fatigue, or the length of time they've been playing REGARDLESS of what type play might be anticipated, and under normal conditions that have adequate time to substitute a player (if properly prepared to do so).

There are unique physical, tactical and objective differences between "Football" played at different levels (Interscholastic, Collegiate, Professional) and Kick formation Match-Up" is high on that list.  Whats "good for the goose" doesn't necessarily apply to the "gander".
It seems counterproductive (at least here in the south) to promote a style of play that leads to fatigue at the high school level. The heat/humidity timeout is welcome to all parties on the field, especially during early games. IMHO, the 40 sec clock adds to the danger of heat related injuries due to the limited opportunities to substitute.


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Offline Magician

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2018, 09:38:30 PM »
It seems counterproductive (at least here in the south) to promote a style of play that leads to fatigue at the high school level. The heat/humidity timeout is welcome to all parties on the field, especially during early games. IMHO, the 40 sec clock adds to the danger of heat related injuries due to the limited opportunities to substitute.


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The 40-second clock very rarely speeds up how quickly the team snaps the ball. Assuming most dead ball to ready with a 25-second clock is about 15 seconds the pace is about the same. Even if the ball is ready prior to 25 seconds on the play clock, it is very rarely snapped before 25 seconds. You'll run into a team occasionally that will snap between 25-30, but the defense has time to sub then as well.

If this ever does pass I guarantee you all the talk in the offseason will be about how much faster teams will be able to. Having gone through this twice now (first in NCAA and now as an experimental state), I can tell you that's where most of the conversation is until the games are played. Then everyone goes as fast as they've always gone. The much bigger impact is dead ball to DOG and that impact is it's the same on every play rather than an 8-10 second variation play to play.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2018, 06:11:46 AM »
Al:  One-platoon football is dead & it ain't coming back.  Allowing for defensive matchups  would maintain the balance between offense and defense that NFHS values so dearly.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2018, 09:07:59 AM »
Al:  One-platoon football is dead & it ain't coming back.  Allowing for defensive matchups  would maintain the balance between offense and defense that NFHS values so dearly.

I'm not looking for "one-platoon" football, any more that I'm looking for unnecessary rule adjustments to accommodate Coaches who refuse to prepare for INEVITABLE REPETITIONS, common to the game. 

Of course, most everything is local, and no two football games have EVER been exactly alike, but deciding whether to kick, after 3rd down, is a reasonably consistent decision Coaches have to make during, at least a majority, of Interscholastic Football games, and a majority of Coaches are most often prepared to do so, on a regular basis WITHOUT calling for a "team meeting" to alert (usually) the same substitutes to repeat their standard assignment.

The value of pre-planning and preparation extends to both sides of the ball. Specific actions, usually call for specific reactions.

Both the Offense and Defense ALREADY have exactly the same opportunities to plan, and be prepared for, multiple opportunities/challenges that may be determined by previous game action.

Some (actually, quite a few) Coaches have their selected "Special Teams" substitutes standing by, on alert, prepared (if not anxious) to enter the game upon receipt of brief, additional and specific instruction.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 09:12:35 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Rule changes are here
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2018, 12:19:32 PM »
Easy solution. Make a rule prohibiting ANY substitutions after :20 on the play clock. If a coach takes too long deciding to punt, let the QB pint and the safety can receive it.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2018, 06:28:05 AM »

Some (actually, quite a few) Coaches have their selected "Special Teams" substitutes standing by, on alert, prepared (if not anxious) to enter the game upon receipt of brief, additional and specific instruction.

I know very few (if any) defensive coaches who send out their punt return team when the offense lines up to run a play on 4th down, as in the OP's video.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2018, 09:11:37 AM »
Maybe I'm in a weird area, but most high schools around me don't have enough players to really have dedicated punt/punt coverage teams. They might have a special returner (maybe a WR/PR, so he's not on defense), but they don't make wholesale changes like the video. I think around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem or "Hey, they do that on Saturday/Sunday, so we should do it too!"

However, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that there is nothing in the rule book that can prevent the play shown in the video. The team lined up, *was set* and then did a full scale substitution with the intent of deceiving the defense. That should be a violation of 9-6-4d for illegal participation. That being said, since the defense then tried to substitute and failed to have everybody on/off in time, they would have also been guilty of an illegal substitution foul and it would be a double foul and the down replayed. (Of course, the defense calls timeout preventing either foul from occurring)

If the issue was that the offense just looked lost in the huddle until <10 seconds on the play clock and then tried to pull this, then I agree that there's nothing that could be done from our perspective in the current rule book.

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2018, 09:39:40 AM »
Maybe I'm in a weird area, but most high schools around me don't have enough players to really have dedicated punt/punt coverage teams. They might have a special returner (maybe a WR/PR, so he's not on defense), but they don't make wholesale changes like the video. I think around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem or "Hey, they do that on Saturday/Sunday, so we should do it too!"

However, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis that there is nothing in the rule book that can prevent the play shown in the video. The team lined up, *was set* and then did a full scale substitution with the intent of deceiving the defense. That should be a violation of 9-6-4d for illegal participation. That being said, since the defense then tried to substitute and failed to have everybody on/off in time, they would have also been guilty of an illegal substitution foul and it would be a double foul and the down replayed. (Of course, the defense calls timeout preventing either foul from occurring)

If the issue was that the offense just looked lost in the huddle until <10 seconds on the play clock and then tried to pull this, then I agree that there's nothing that could be done from our perspective in the current rule book.

I don't know if 9-4-6d was ever intended for this type of action or has ever been interpreted to penalize this type of action. 9-4-6d has historically been used to penalize teams that use the substitution process to deceive opponents by hiding a player near the sideline or things like that.

I also wouldn't say what Team A does here is "deception". They're not deceiving the opponents. It's clear to everyone that they're substituting their full punt unit onto the field. They just do it in such a manner that leaves Team B little/no chance to match up. I don't think I can support a 9-4-6d interpretation here.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Rule changes are here
« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2018, 09:47:52 AM »
I wouldn't think there is anything inherently illegal about substituting your entire team, at any point in a game, as long as you can get everyone set and comply with NFHS 3-6-2a.  Considering a violation of 9-6-4d, seems like a bit of a stretch without additional, very convincing, behavior.

Your observation, "around here, the matchup substitution rule would be seen as a solution in search of a problem" seems valid.