Author Topic: TD or Not?  (Read 2501 times)

Offline NCVAReferee

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TD or Not?
« on: February 19, 2018, 07:31:54 PM »
A QB throws a pass to A WR in the back of the end zone.  A WR jumps high to catch the pass and when he comes down he steps on the defensive player who is laying prone across the end line.  He then steps in bounds in the end zone.  Touchdown or incomplete?

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2018, 10:06:15 PM »
A QB throws a pass to A WR in the back of the end zone.  A WR jumps high to catch the pass and when he comes down he steps on the defensive player who is laying prone across the end line.  He then steps in bounds in the end zone.  Touchdown or incomplete?

TD. NFHS: 2-29-2 "A ball in player possession (see 2-34-1) is out of bounds when the runner or the ball touches anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside a sideline or end line."

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2018, 08:28:25 AM »
Consider a runner near the sidelines slipping out of an attempted tackle by a defender who is touching the sidelines. Same deal. Remember, though, that a LOOSE BALL touching a player who is touching the sidelines is considered OOB.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 11:42:06 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline KWH

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Award Team A 6 points
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2018, 04:56:11 PM »
A QB throws a pass to A WR in the back of the end zone.  A WR jumps high to catch the pass and when he comes down he steps on the defensive player who is laying prone across the end line.  He then steps in bounds in the end zone.  Touchdown or incomplete?

 ^good   2-4-1, 2-29-2, 2-34-1, 8-2-1b   ^good
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 01:08:49 PM by KWH »

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 07:44:57 PM »
When is a pass no longer considered a loose ball?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2018, 07:42:58 AM »
When possession is gained or it becomes dead by rule -- same as any other loose ball.

Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2018, 08:15:28 AM »
So, has the WR established possession of the loose ball in the OP when he stepped on the defender?


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Offline FLAHL

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2018, 10:08:12 AM »
So, has the WR established possession of the loose ball in the OP when he stepped on the defender?


No, but he did when ďHe then steps in bounds in the end zoneĒ

Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2018, 03:09:36 PM »
No, but he did when “He then steps in bounds in the end zone”
So if he doesn’t have the ball in player possession when he contacted a player who is oob, what rule support do we have for ruling this a catch?


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2018, 04:11:24 PM »
So if he doesnít have the ball in player possession when he contacted a player who is oob, what rule support do we have for ruling this a catch?

It doesn't really matter that the player, "have the ball in player possession when he contacted a player who is oob", to be a "catch", and in this instance a TD, what matters is that the player had, and maintained, possession of the ball when he contacted the ground inbounds (or in this case, in the endzone).

Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2018, 07:41:31 PM »
It doesn't really matter that the player, "have the ball in player possession when he contacted a player who is oob", to be a "catch", and in this instance a TD, what matters is that the player had, and maintained, possession of the ball when he contacted the ground inbounds (or in this case, in the endzone).
But the rule you referenced plainly states “a ball in player possession.” Are you saying that’s different from a player’s body touching another player who is oob?
If a player must first touch inbounds to secure player possession, then what is the status of the ball before he Does? if it’s loose, then this can’t be a catch.


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« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 08:17:15 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2018, 10:05:35 PM »
But the rule you referenced plainly states ďa ball in player possession.Ē Are you saying thatís different from a playerís body touching another player who is oob?
If a player must first touch inbounds to secure player possession, then what is the status of the ball before he Does? if itís loose, then this canít be a catch.

Neither "a player" (NFHS 2-29-1) or "a ball in player possession" (NFHS 2-29-2) "is oob when any part of the person (or ball) touches anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside a sideline or end line".

NFHS 2-29-3, however, advises; "a loose ball is oob when it touches anything, including a player or game official that is oob".

When a player who secures possession of a loose ball touches a player or game official who is oob, that touching is inconsequential, and as the referenced play suggests, that player THEN touches the ground (steps inbounds in the EZ) he completes the catch, creating a TD, presuming possession is maintained throughout.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2018, 10:07:34 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline js in sc

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2018, 10:10:14 PM »
But the rule you referenced plainly states ďa ball in player possession.Ē Are you saying thatís different from a playerís body touching another player who is oob?
If a player must first touch inbounds to secure player possession, then what is the status of the ball before he Does? if itís loose, then this canít be a catch.

Maybe I am confused, but player possession is not the same as returning to the ground.  When the catch is made, that is possession.  In order to complete the catch, he must return to the ground inbounds with it still in his possession.  Possession does not depend on returning to the ground, completion does.  Where am I wrong?


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Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 06:27:12 AM »

The question I’m trying to ask is what determines player possession? Are we gonna use the same criteria we use for other parts of the field? There was an extended discussion about that on this forum not long ago regarding a catch. Can a player possess a ball before he catches it?  If so, I agree this is a td. If he has to complete the catch to possess the ball, then the ball is not in player possession when the player landed on the opponent.  There is a subtle but important difference between this situation and Ralph’s example. In his situation the ball is clearly in player possession because he had feet on the ground first.


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 10:37:50 AM »
CalhounLJ,
I actually can't speak for NF rules, but perhaps their rule regarding a player being OB is the same as NCAA.  In NCAA, a player - any player, not just a ball carrier - is NOT out of bounds if he happens to be touching another player that is out of bounds.  So, if said player is also holding a ball after receiving it from a pass (or any loose ball), the ball is not touching anything out of bounds.  That may make the status of the ball still "loose" from the forward pass (because the catch is not yet complete, thus, player possession is not yet established), but the ball is not out of bounds.  It is still alive and in play.  When the receiver (holding the ball) then touches the ground inbounds (and complies with all of the other criteria required to complete a catch), the catch is complete, and player possession is established.  If that happens to be in the end zone, that's a TD.

So, the question is: In NF, does the definition of a player (not just a ball carrier) out bounds have the similar NCAA exception for contacting another player that is out of bounds?

Robert

Offline js in sc

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 11:01:19 AM »
CalhounLJ,
I actually can't speak for NF rules, but perhaps their rule regarding a player being OB is the same as NCAA.  In NCAA, a player - any player, not just a ball carrier - is NOT out of bounds if he happens to be touching another player that is out of bounds.  So, if said player is also holding a ball after receiving it from a pass (or any loose ball), the ball is not touching anything out of bounds.  That may make the status of the ball still "loose" from the forward pass (because the catch is not yet complete, thus, player possession is not yet established), but the ball is not out of bounds.  It is still alive and in play.  When the receiver (holding the ball) then touches the ground inbounds (and complies with all of the other criteria required to complete a catch), the catch is complete, and player possession is established.  If that happens to be in the end zone, that's a TD.

So, the question is: In NF, does the definition of a player (not just a ball carrier) out bounds have the similar NCAA exception for contacting another player that is out of bounds?

Robert

Yes.  Rule 2-29-1 exempts a player touching another player or official, who is OOB, from being OOB.  2-29-3 also states that the ball is OOB if IT (the ball itself) touches anything OOB.  Since the player, and not the ball touches the player who is OOB, neither the player, nor the ball would be considered OOB at that time.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2018, 11:24:17 AM »
Yes.  Rule 2-29-1 exempts a player touching another player or official, who is OOB, from being OOB.  2-29-3 also states that the ball is OOB if IT (the ball itself) touches anything OOB.  Since the player, and not the ball touches the player who is OOB, neither the player, nor the ball would be considered OOB at that time.

OK, so the ball is alive and in play, although still, technically, loose from the forward pass.  The catch is not yet complete.  Wherever he then touches the ground (pylon/goal post, etc.) will determine if the catch becomes complete or incomplete.  If he first touches inbounds - catch and completed pass!  If he first touches out of bounds - no catch, and incomplete pass.

Effectively, it is as though he hasn't touched anything, at that point - he's just "airborne."

Same for NCAA.

Robert

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2018, 01:12:04 PM »
The question Iím trying to ask is what determines player possession? Are we gonna use the same criteria we use for other parts of the field? There was an extended discussion about that on this forum not long ago regarding a catch. Can a player possess a ball before he catches it?  If so, I agree this is a td. If he has to complete the catch to possess the ball, then the ball is not in player possession when the player landed on the opponent.  There is a subtle but important difference between this situation and Ralphís example. In his situation the ball is clearly in player possession because he had feet on the ground first.

If I might suggest, your efforts to conflate "Possession" and "Catch" may be contributing to your confusion.  "Possession" is a required component necessary to ultimately complete a "catch", but is separately defined in NFHS 2-34-1.

A "Catch" is defined in NFHS 2-4-1, as "the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball......."   Player possession as defined in 2-34-1 is "a ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player".

Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 07:46:10 PM »
If I might suggest, your efforts to conflate "Possession" and "Catch" may be contributing to your confusion.  "Possession" is a required component necessary to ultimately complete a "catch", but is separately defined in NFHS 2-34-1.

A "Catch" is defined in NFHS 2-4-1, as "the act of establishing player possession of a live ball which is in flight, and first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball......."   Player possession as defined in 2-34-1 is "a ball in player possession is a live ball held or controlled by a player".
I see. I think you are right. I was thinking that to have possession a catch had to be completed. If simply controlling the ball is establishing player possession, then I agree this is a td. Thanks for all the explanations. 


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 07:55:58 AM »
I was thinking that to have possession a catch had to be completed. If simply controlling the ball is establishing player possession, then I agree this is a td.
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CalhounLJ,
You may want to keep researching.  Again, I don't know NF rules, and maybe they are different in this respect, but, in NCAA, player possession is not achieved until the catch/recovery of a loose ball is completed.  Technically, the ball is still loose from the pass, until player possession is officially achieved (i.e., catch is completed).  As evidence of that - again, in NCAA - should a player grasp and firmly hold a loose ball while the player is airborne, then, while still airborne, he propels the ball in any direction, that is treated as a "bat" of the ball, and not a "pass."  This happened in bowl game, and the airborne intercepting player actually propelled the ball forward to a teammate.  Not truly sure of how to rule, crew assessed a 5-yard illegal forward pass penalty, but gave possession of the ball to the intercepting team.  While both teams were reasonably satisfied with the ruling, the ruling of an illegal forward pass was incorrect.  The following season, John Adams included a new Approved Ruling in the rule book that ruled that such propelling of the ball by an airborne player is simply batting of a loose ball, because player possession has not been achieved (and, officially, a pass can only be made by a player in possession of the ball).  In the case of a pass, the loose ball may be batted in any direction (thus, no foul for propelling it forward).

What other issue would there be if player possession isn't achieved until the catch is complete?

Robert

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 09:58:18 AM »

You may want to keep researching.  Again, I don't know NF rules, and maybe they are different in this respect, but, in NCAA, player possession is not achieved until the catch/recovery of a loose ball is completed. 
Robert

One of many reasons, the NFHS Rule Book is so much smaller than it's NCAA counterpart, and NFHS games can be played without the necessity of interruptions to micromanage, and assess microscopic film reviews to insure compliance.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 12:09:50 PM »
Player catches pass as he lands on the inbounds part of a fellow human who is touching out-of-bounds with another part + player with possession of catch then steps onto the inbounds part of planet earth = strike up the band and let the cheerleaders prance  ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (5 man crew)....

"That ruling is in accordance with the doctrine of common sense and fair play. " (Source: Referee Mag. April 2018 - pg.18 - last line on baseball quiz)

.....but it does make you sound like you know what you're talking about tR:oLl !!!

Offline CalhounLJ

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TD or Not?
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 03:51:11 PM »
Player catches pass as he lands on the inbounds part of a fellow human who is touching out-of-bounds with another part + player with possession of catch then steps onto the inbounds part of planet earth = strike up the band and let the cheerleaders prance  ^good ^good ^good ^good ^good (5 man crew)....

"That ruling is in accordance with the doctrine of common sense and fair play. " (Source: Referee Mag. April 2018 - pg.18 - last line on baseball quiz)

.....but it does make you sound like you know what you're talking about tR:oLl !!!
Still, Elvis is supporting my argument. If a player has to complete a catch to establish player possession, then technically this play would not fit the parameters of the player possession rule.


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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 04:56:24 PM »
Still, Elvis is supporting my argument. If a player has to complete a catch to establish player possession, then technically this play would not fit the parameters of the player possession rule.
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CalhounJL,
I'm supporting your argument that a player that grasps and firmly holds the pass while airborne does not establish player possession until the catch is completed, which requires him to touch the ground inbounds while holding the ball securely (and complete the catch process).  In the play given, he eventually does that, when he steps on the ground in the end zone (for a TD).  But, while he is stepping on another player, he isn't out of bounds, but he hasn't completed the catch yet, either. While stepping on the other player (friend or foe), he is, effectively, airborne.  If his subsequent first contact with the ground is OB, then the pass is incomplete.  If his subsequent first contact with the ground is inbounds (and he completes the catch process) then the catch is made, and the pass is complete.
While the receiver is "airborne," though, I still can't think of anything that this affects, other than him potentially propelling the ball, which (at least in NCAA) we know how to treat.  Not sure what is hanging you up.

Robert

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: TD or Not?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 06:48:02 PM »
Still, Elvis is supporting my argument. If a player has to complete a catch to establish player possession, then technically this play would not fit the parameters of the player possession rule.

Perhaps not, in the NCAA universe, but in the NFHS world 2-34-1 dictates  possession is established is based on a ball being "held or controlled".  However, possessing the ball, alone, doesn't complete a "catch" being made. NFHS 2-4-1 adds the necessary requirement of "first contacting the ground inbounds while maintaining possession of the ball".