Author Topic: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....  (Read 1694 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

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A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« on: April 05, 2018, 07:14:57 AM »
This afternoon (4 PM EDT) we gather the thirsty members of our chapter (always more than half) at our favorite watering hole (the site of our weekly gathering after Friday night lights where we watch the highlights/lowlights of our games). We preview the new rules, new POEs of rules and manual books and partake of our favorite beverage. Many friendships have developed over the years and a good time is always had by all. An added feature this year is the Red Sox home opener will be on the many screens there, and with a 5-1 start, will probably draw more attention than the debate as to should we have changed the signal for dead ball fouls on free kicks :o ??? ::) :P !

An off-season meeting like this helps to re-kindle the interest of all attending. If you guys don't do anything similar, you may want to give it a try.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2018, 07:30:34 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline stevegarbs

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2018, 12:07:17 PM »
Ralph, amongst your membership how many are football-only officials and how many work multiple sports? My experience has been that the multi-sport guys are hard to recruit to off-football-season events. Heck I have a hard time even scheduling meetings of our association board during the off season due to those conflicts with baseball, lacrosse, basketball, etc. assignments!

Offline KWH

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Giants 10 - Mariners 1
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2018, 03:53:28 PM »
Out here on the left coast, (where it is PDT half of the time) we just last night held our 4th Pre-Season Beer Call Football Rules Study Group where we
get away from the wives under the pretense of studying rules
discuss in depth Rules Book study of new rules for the past few years. Last years rule covering the amputees arm flying off mid-stride (with the ball tucked away in that arm), has made cause for two additional special meetings just to discuss that one, difficult to interpret, rule as no one round these parts has actually had it happen.
In other completely unrelated news; the Giants edged the Mariners last night 10-1!

 tiphat:
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 05:20:06 PM by KWH »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2018, 05:06:35 PM »
Sometimes basic common sense is the best one can do.  You might consider; immediately stopping the play, due to the concern, and potential threat to serious player safety.  After competent medical professionals have resolved any medical issues related to the player, and his removal from the playing field, handle further action as you normally would regarding any Inadvertent Whistle, when the ball is loose, as currently specified in NFHS rules.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2018, 04:38:54 AM »
Al --

REALLY??    hEaDbAnG

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2018, 09:05:19 AM »
Ralph, amongst your membership how many are football-only officials and how many work multiple sports? My experience has been that the multi-sport guys are hard to recruit to off-football-season events. Heck I have a hard time even scheduling meetings of our association board during the off season due to those conflicts with baseball, lacrosse, basketball, etc. assignments!
This time in Maine is a 'tweener...basketball, hockey and the like ended in mid March while base/softball doesn't begin for another week or when the snow melts. We had 23 there last night (45 members in chapter) and 10 worked other sports. A lively discussion evolved - alcohol may have been a contributing factor - around the 40 sec. clock. That excitement quickly changed as, in the bottom of the 12th at 6:02 PM EDT, the Red Sox winning run crossed the plate. We all rose (except for one ,who was a Yankee fan) had a victory toast and tried to sing "Dirty Water" which is the Song played at Fenway after every victory. We did spend considerable time on the new Game Officials Manual Points of Emphasis. They are:

EQUIPMENT ISSUES TO BE ADDRESSED - Stresses preventive officiating by observing the teams in pre-game and correct it then.

CONSISTENT PACE OF PLAY THROUGHOUT THE GAME - We move faster, have ball ready quicker and let the teams dictate the pace. Hopefully this will keep the 40 sec. clock away.

TIMING RULES AND PROCEDURES - Both coaches & ref can shorten or end a period. Both coaches & ref can shorten halftime down to 10 minutes. No one can call a lightning disturbance "halftime" finishing the 2nd period after it clears and go directly to 2nd half.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: Giants 10 - Mariners 1
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2018, 09:33:11 AM »
Last years rule covering the amputees arm flying off mid-stride (with the ball tucked away in that arm), has made cause for two additional special meetings just to discuss that one, difficult to interpret, rule as no one round these parts has actually had it happen.

Clearly, there was an incident where this happened. I still haven't seen video, but it HAS to exist -- and google searches only bring up that UCF player with one hand (Shaquem Griffin).

Also, Buccos are number 1. Buccos are going all the way this year.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2018, 09:46:42 AM »
Al -- REALLY??   

Upon further review, and added reflection to a NFHS 1-1-6 solution initially considered to avoid, what sounded in the op as,  unnecessary confusion, consternation and delay, relying instead on common sense and fair play, I discovered a similar, but more specifically applicable rule reference in NFHS 4-2-2-L "The ball becomes dead and the down is ended"...(L: "When a prosthetic limb comes completely off a runner").

Case Book 4.2.2.Situation J.c, although specifically referencing the runner's loss of a helmet, seems to support this decision, as player safety is the operative concern.




« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 09:48:56 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2018, 02:54:41 PM »
CONSISTENT PACE OF PLAY THROUGHOUT THE GAME - We move faster, have ball ready quicker and let the teams dictate the pace. Hopefully this will keep the 40 sec. clock away.

Ralph,
Curious.  What is the reservation regarding the 40-second play clock?

My first 26 years or so in football officiating, the battle raged among those that were more inclined to work the game as directed at the D1-A level, i.e., work the game by rule and let the game itself dictate its own, natural (real time) length, and those that were more inclined to consume as much time as possible between plays, in a somewhat selfish effort to reduce total game (real) time.  This was mostly at the High School level, but it was also exhibited at some of the lower NCAA levels, JUCO, NAIA, etc.
From an officiating aspect, the one item that most affected total game time was the time between the dead ball and the RFP signal.  Although far better controlled than in high school, even at the D1-A level that interval was inconsistent, and would impact the play of the game.  At the HS level, it bordered on manipulation for the intent of ensuring a particular outcome - at least that was the perception, if not reality.
The fix for this was/is the 40-second play clock.  The benefit has been remarkable.  The consistency of having the ball ready for play is dramatically improved, and complaints about getting the ball ready efficiently have all but disappeared.  I can attest to having loved the 40-second clock at the NCAA level.
Here in Texas, the 40-second clock has been in use for HS for four or five years, now, and the only complaints are that the operators are poorly trained. 
It forced virtually all HSs to get field play clocks, which is a HUGE help, even if we were still using just the 25-second clock.  So, I can also attest to loving the 40-second clock at the HS level.  We just need to get the operators better trained.

So, I am wondering what the objection might be (for officials)?

Robert

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2018, 04:04:52 PM »
This time in Maine is a 'tweener...basketball, hockey and the like ended in mid March while base/softball doesn't begin for another week or when the snow melts.

Ralph:
Down here, Baseball started in mid-February.  (Basketball was still in their playoffs at that time).

The regular season ends on the 21st of this month.  The playoffs last until late May.

The schools are allowed two weeks of Spring Practice in football, usually in May.  And can hold a scrimmage with another school.

Hard for us to find a time when all of our many sports officials can attend an off-season meeting, although we do have one scheduled.

Offline KWH

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Al - You all ever hear of a joke up North???
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2018, 11:39:03 PM »
Al --

REALLY??    hEaDbAnG


Al --
 SERIOUSLY???   :!#  ???  :!#  ???  :!#  ???  :!#     :puke:
« Last Edit: April 06, 2018, 11:42:22 PM by KWH »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Al - You all ever hear of a joke up North???
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2018, 11:24:40 AM »
Al --
 SERIOUSLY???   :!#  ???  :!#  ???  :!#  ???  :!#     :puke:

Well, someone ultimately has to make a decision.  Choices seem limited, but you could elect to try;

* Schedule a bunch of additional "pre-season" meetings to determine if the horse's carcass your examining is really, REALLY dead.

* If the situation should EVER happen during a game, pause the game and re-open the pre-season meeting discussion, which was likely tabled without reaching a final conclusion, until everyone in attendance got bored and tired and went home.

* Find something within the rules more applicable than NFHS: 4-2-2-L.

Offline KWH

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2018, 05:18:41 PM »
Al -

Thank you but I am completely aware of 4-4-4L.  In fact, I was sitting next to Ralph when it passed.
My post was intended as a bit of a joke as, frankly,  the likelihood of 4-2-2l ever reoccurring in any of our lifetimes is somewhere between slim and none.
...and slim left the building a year ago.  :sTiR:
« Last Edit: April 07, 2018, 05:21:14 PM by KWH »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2018, 12:50:47 PM »
Al -

Thank you but I am completely aware of 4-4-4L.  In fact, I was sitting next to Ralph when it passed.
My post was intended as a bit of a joke as, frankly,  the likelihood of 4-2-2l ever reoccurring in any of our lifetimes is somewhere between slim and none.
...and slim left the building a year ago.  :sTiR:

Just trying to be helpful giving you ammunition to avoid having to convene a, "5th Pre-Season Beer Call Football Rules Study Group where we discuss in depth Rules Book study of new rules for the past few years" to answer a question, that I agree, may NEVER (hopefully) need answering.

If determined necessary to summon Ralph, to that meeting, as an expert witness, the cost of importing "Lobster flavored beer" may have proven prohibitive.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2018, 12:55:04 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline KWH

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2018, 03:38:19 PM »


 hEaDbAnG

Online Etref

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2018, 04:05:14 PM »
Al -

Thank you but I am completely aware of 4-4-4L.  In fact, I was sitting next to Ralph when it passed.
My post was intended as a bit of a joke as, frankly,  the likelihood of 4-2-2l ever reoccurring in any of our lifetimes is somewhere between slim and none.
...and slim left the building a year ago.  :sTiR:


Maybe, maybe not!

At the NFL combine this year there was a player who pumped 20 bench presses with his PROSTHETIC ARM!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2018, 09:40:28 AM »
My lack of support for the 40" clock, on the high school level, began 10+ years ago when it was introduced into the NCAA. I was the game clock operator at a DIII school back then with the play clock kept on the field. The NCAA mandate was a play clock needed to be added to the field along with employing a field clock operator. With a 7-man crew, 4 ball boys and now field play clocks, I didn't notice any difference to the pace of the game. I asked several crews if improved anything with the only response being that it kept them honest.

When the 40" clock began to rise it's head at the NFHS level, I contacted 3 NCAA officials that had began their officiating for Maine's high schools. Their opinions were that it would be a challenge. There aren't any fields in Maine with field play clocks, many schools still hire only 4 man crews (sub-varsity is all 3-man), and ball boys only show up on rainy/snowy/muddy games. There has not been any coach, official ,or state support for the 40" clock and with the removal of the RFP whistle (been there since 1953) would be confusing.

I would support a rule change that improves safety or fairness regardless of the challenge of adjusting. I don't feel the 40" clock would do that in Maine. A motto hung over Charles O. Finley's desk (ole' Oakland A's owner) that read :

    "IF TWO MEN AGREED ON EVERYTHING ONLY ONE IS NEEDED"
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 09:42:48 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 02:55:06 PM »
My lack of support for the 40" clock, on the high school level, began 10+ years ago when it was introduced into the NCAA. I was the game clock operator at a DIII school back then with the play clock kept on the field. The NCAA mandate was a play clock needed to be added to the field along with employing a field clock operator. With a 7-man crew, 4 ball boys and now field play clocks, I didn't notice any difference to the pace of the game. I asked several crews if improved anything with the only response being that it kept them honest.

When the 40" clock began to rise it's head at the NFHS level, I contacted 3 NCAA officials that had began their officiating for Maine's high schools. Their opinions were that it would be a challenge. There aren't any fields in Maine with field play clocks, many schools still hire only 4 man crews (sub-varsity is all 3-man), and ball boys only show up on rainy/snowy/muddy games. There has not been any coach, official ,or state support for the 40" clock and with the removal of the RFP whistle (been there since 1953) would be confusing.

I would support a rule change that improves safety or fairness regardless of the challenge of adjusting. I don't feel the 40" clock would do that in Maine. A motto hung over Charles O. Finley's desk (ole' Oakland A's owner) that read :

    "IF TWO MEN AGREED ON EVERYTHING ONLY ONE IS NEEDED"

Ralph,
Those are all perfectly legitimate points of discussion. 
As for the difference in FBS games, the pace of the game may not have changed, but the issue of the crew getting the ball ready and the team having to wait for a whistle to snap the ball disappeared.  That was huge.  Our staff wasn't getting hammered constantly about getting the ball ready consistently.  I could focus on substitutions, etc., instead.  I loved it.  But, indeed, we had competent PCOs.   

As for HS, Texas was very similar to your situation, in that so many schools did not have play clocks, and certainly not operators.  Once the governing body (U.I.L.) took the plunge and decided to go with the 40-second clocks, they gave the schools a couple of years to procure the clocks, i.e., in year "NN," they said that in year NN+2, all schools would be required to have play clocks, and, obviously, operators.  That gave the schools time to budget and procure the clocks.
The training/skill of the operators varies widely.  Some are as good as any that we encountered at FBS games.  However, sadly, some appear to have zero training or experience.  The game clock is either: start it when an official signals, or on the snap, and stop it on a T/O/incomplete signal or a score.  Pretty simple.  Unfortunately, the play clock requires much greater knowledge and practice than the game clock.  Compounding the problem is that the PCOs, generally, have no good way to get practice, since the teams don't often use the play clock in scrimmages, etc.  But, somebody is getting it, because, like I said, some of the PCOs are as good as any in FBS games.

Varsity in Texas is crews of 5 (vast majority), or 7.  Even 6-player football uses 5 officials (almost all of the time, but some crews of four are necessary).  Sub-varsity is, indeed, a challenge.  Some larger schools have a PCO for those.  But smaller schools often do not, and they just expect the game crew to time the RFP period.  In those cases, we may not be very picky about delays-of-game, i.e., unless Team A is obviously consuming time deliberately, we won't have a DOG.  I hate that, but it is the only reasonable thing we can do with crews of 3, 4 (and an occasional crew of 5).
For varsity, ball persons are almost always available, although many are just young kids, and usually just one per team.  Ideally, we'd have at least 3 per team (one for each sideline, and a 'runner,' to keep the balls balanced between the sidelines). (We usually had 5 per team for FBS games!)  But, even the large schools only muster up 2, at most, and they stay on their own sideline.  The coaches/administrators don't like their ball persons being on the other team's sideline.  So, we have to adjust to having a ball person only on the offensive sideline during any particular series.  With a fleet and active back judge, and with attentive ball persons, that isn't too much of a problem.  But, lacking those two things, we'll end up pumping the clock up somewhat frequently.

But, personally, I much prefer the inherent consistency of the 40-second clock, rather than the built-in inconsistency of the R declaring the ball ready.

Coaches don't like change.  Period.  Even if it is for their own good, they resist change (usually because it keeps them from cheating).
 
Honestly, officials aren't much different.  We don't like change, either.  But, we adapt, and we usually see the good in the change, in time.

But, however it goes in Maine, I hope all goes well.  With the other life-and-liberty threatening things happening in the world, this a pretty insignificant.

Robert



Offline Tom.OH

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2018, 03:23:14 PM »




A motto hung over Charles O. Finley's desk (ole' Oakland A's owner) that read :

    "IF TWO MEN AGREED ON EVERYTHING ONLY ONE IS NEEDED"


I lived in suburban Kansas City in the mid sixtys, they used to be the Kansas City A's...

Now those in Philly can chime in...
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Groucho Marx

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 04:21:56 PM »
As an NFHS State, NY obviously doesn't require a 40 second clock, and there doesn't seem to be any serious issue because of it.  There may be an occasional  delay caused by some unique factor, but other than when one team may be utilizing a "Hurry-up" offense (to gain a legitimate advantage) it doesn't cause a recurring problem and is managed by the Referee.  Considering we're dealing with Interscholastic players (at multiple levels) having a consistent "alert" that play is  about to commence (Referee RFP Signal) seems a reasonable, universal signal, that hasn't seemed to create any significant trouble/problem for Referees, Players or Teams.

Occasionally, other crew members may assist in remind players, of either team, to intensify their focus, but that's usually done subtlety, without issue.  Thankfully, most, if not ALL, teams provide "ball boys" to assist in retrieving errant footballs, and problems in that area are few and inconsequential.  A competent Referee is most often capable of establishing, and maintaining an appropriate and consistent pace, except for the few, and likely unique circumstances that may arise and require individual monitoring.

When local games are televised, there are minor additional timing factors added for interruptions, that the Officials are easily able to accommodate, without any major adjustments to the game flow, or pace.  In essence, factors controlling the consistency of time elapsed between plays is NOT a significant, or consistent problem, which is usually managed and controlled without difficulty by the Officiating crew, and does not create any negative condition requiring necessary or impacting correction.

Generally Varsity games are managed by 5 man-crews, sub-varsity, 4 man crews.  Timers, for all Varsity level games are active Officials assigned by our Association, as part of the game Crew. Timers for "Some" sub-Varsity contests are similarly assigned, otherwise (& usually) the game clock is managed on the field, by the game crew.
 
Timing delays between plays, other than unique circumstances that usually require special handling,  is NOT a serious, common or persistent problem, that would require such a serious conversion.     
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 04:29:51 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Magician

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 11:43:12 PM »
Working in an experimental state I can tell you I love it. Our crew was pretty consistent with the 25, but this makes it automatic. Even with a consistent 25 second clock you are going to have variation from dead ball to RFP of 3-8 seconds. If you have a bad crew or one that loves to give the offense plenty of time to get their play in and called, it will be even more noticeable. It's one less thing for the crew to worry about between plays. It also eliminates the coach complaining at the end of the half that we are taking too long to spot the ball and taking too much time off the clock. Every coach I've talked to love it as well. They hate having to play in other states that still uses a 25-second play clock. It throws off their rhythm.

I understand states that don't want to change or don't perceive an issue with the 25-second clock. It's not a major issue, but once I started working with a 40-second clock I hated to have to work any game where you had to constantly blow in the RFP. It felt clunky. At a minimum I hope the rules committee adds it as a state adoption rule next year.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Giants 10 - Mariners 1
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2018, 07:47:03 AM »
Clearly, there was an incident where this happened. I still haven't seen video, but it HAS to exist -- and google searches only bring up that UCF player with one hand (Shaquem Griffin).

Also, Buccos are number 1. Buccos are going all the way this year.
As I recall, this occurred the prior year to passage in Ohio. The officials working the game stopped play when it happened and ,without than rule support, applied 1-1-6. Now they have rule support.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2018, 08:51:37 AM »
Thanks, guys, for your responses to the 40" clock discussion. I'm sure it'll be debated again next January. IMHO, beyond reducing DOG calls and the number of victory formation snaps to run out the clock, I don't see it as a good fit for football in Maine. If we all agreed on every thing, this would be a very boring forum....

 ^talk yEs: yEs: ^talk pHiNzuP :) :D ;D :-* :angel: yEs: yEs: pHiNzuP

Offline Bob M.

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2018, 10:09:41 PM »
Ralph,
Curious.  What is the reservation regarding the 40-second play clock?

My first 26 years or so in football officiating, the battle raged among those that were more inclined to work the game as directed at the D1-A level, i.e., work the game by rule and let the game itself dictate its own, natural (real time) length, and those that were more inclined to consume as much time as possible between plays, in a somewhat selfish effort to reduce total game (real) time.  This was mostly at the High School level, but it was also exhibited at some of the lower NCAA levels, JUCO, NAIA, etc.
From an officiating aspect, the one item that most affected total game time was the time between the dead ball and the RFP signal.  Although far better controlled than in high school, even at the D1-A level that interval was inconsistent, and would impact the play of the game.  At the HS level, it bordered on manipulation for the intent of ensuring a particular outcome - at least that was the perception, if not reality.
The fix for this was/is the 40-second play clock.  The benefit has been remarkable.  The consistency of having the ball ready for play is dramatically improved, and complaints about getting the ball ready efficiently have all but disappeared.  I can attest to having loved the 40-second clock at the NCAA level.
Here in Texas, the 40-second clock has been in use for HS for four or five years, now, and the only complaints are that the operators are poorly trained. 
It forced virtually all HSs to get field play clocks, which is a HUGE help, even if we were still using just the 25-second clock.  So, I can also attest to loving the 40-second clock at the HS level.  We just need to get the operators better trained.

So, I am wondering what the objection might be (for officials)?

Robert

REPLY: Our problem here in NJ is that none (well, actually 'one') of our fields have visible play clocks so there are no such things as play clock 'operators.' It would fall on one of the field officials to keep it, and obviously, whoever that is might be a tad busy at the end of a play. I don't see it as feasible unless there are play clocks and a non-field official responsible for those clocks.
Bob M.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: A gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards/or whatever.....
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 10:39:33 AM »
REPLY: Our problem here in NJ is that none (well, actually 'one') of our fields have visible play clocks so there are no such things as play clock 'operators.' It would fall on one of the field officials to keep it, and obviously, whoever that is might be a tad busy at the end of a play. I don't see it as feasible unless there are play clocks and a non-field official responsible for those clocks.

Bob, I truly believe that, once you get field play clocks everywhere, you will love them (even if you stick with a 25-second count).  Yes, you have to have dedicated operators, and how that is accomplished is up to the schools.  They can provide "in house" personnel for that, outsource it, or, if you have the membership to support it, they can have your officials association provide the operators.  Training non-officials is always problematic (particularly for the 40-second count), which is why we have issues here in Texas.  But, as time goes by, they get better.  I have come across many that are as good as any FBS operators I ever had.  But, we've also had folks that were so inept, we had no choice but to abandon them and keep the play clock on the field (which is monumentally difficult with a 40-second count).
Yes, the schools will have to invest in the equipment. The least painful way for that to happen is to have the governing body declare that play clocks will be required for the 20XX football season.  Give the schools two, maybe three, years to budget and procure the equipment, and find operators.  No change is ever totally painless, but it can be smooth, if people are given a little time.
Try it.  You'll like it.   ;)