Author Topic: Hypothetical untimed down situation  (Read 1080 times)

Offline BrendanP

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Hypothetical untimed down situation
« on: May 01, 2018, 04:19:06 PM »
This is what I think about when Iím stuck in traffic.

EDIT: Team B leads 28-24.

3rd and 10 for Team A at the B 35. :02 left in the 4th quarter. A7 throws an incomplete pass and time expires. However thereís a flag for holding on Team A. While the crew is discussing the foul, B20 makes an obscene gesture toward the crowd which is noticed by the back judge, who throws the flag. Because the game has not been declared over yet, do we give Team A a the penalty and the untimed down? Iím leaning toward yes.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 05:29:28 PM by BrendanP »

Offline Etref

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2018, 04:45:19 PM »
It is B option on the hold

A will likely take the dead ball foul on B

If both fouls are accepted, 10 yard penalty from previous spot against A then the 15 yard penalty against B from the succeeding spot the result is a 1st down for A.

It is important that if the Referee is not mic'Ed they give the preliminary signals, then give holding signal and mark penalty yardage off then do the same for the dead all unsportsmanlike
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2018, 04:49:47 PM »
If Team A's pass is incomplete, Team B will probably just decline the hold, right? If so, the only way the dead ball foul will be enforced is if the game goes into OT. At that point, it would be enforced from the succeeding spot.

Offline ChicagoZebra

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2018, 05:28:08 PM »
The period is only extended for accepted live ball fouls (or offsetting fouls). The gesture after the play is not a live ball foul.

Offline GA Umpire

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2018, 06:31:28 PM »
If Team A's pass is incomplete, Team B will probably just decline the hold, right? If so, the only way the dead ball foul will be enforced is if the game goes into OT. At that point, it would be enforced from the succeeding spot.

+1

Offline bossman72

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2018, 08:01:45 AM »
Team B declines the holding foul.  The game is over.  You cannot extend for dead ball fouls, which is what the UNS is.

I remember a game a few years ago where Alabama NG blocks a kick and someone falls on it to end the game.  He immediately takes his helmet off to celebrate.  That foul is not enforceable, therefore the game is over.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2018, 08:55:06 AM »
IMHO, I wouldn't want to put the captain or coach of B in the position of making a BIG mistake.

IMHO, accepting A's hold followed by enforcing the USC against B FOLLOWED by creating an untimed down would give A another play and chance to win. :o

IMHO, if mic'ed, I would announce to the frenzied masses : "The penalty on A is declined, ending the game. The unsportsmanlike penalty on B occurred after the game had ended and , BY RULE, is unenforceable." If the penalty choice is obvious ,we have the authority to : "When the captain's most advantageous choice is obvious, quickly inform him. When the captain does not respond, his silence shall be considered acceptance of obvious choice." (NFHS Officials Manual)....In Mainer-eze : "Ayuh, 'spect ya' wanta' win the game and head home for supper (some still refer to it as dinner). Me and my chums ( yEs: yEs: yEs: yEs: yEs:) are going to decline their penalty and do that." The captain's response may be a grunt or : "Ayuh, 'spect so." B's Bubba's middle finger (further proof that a  :thumbup is a finger) may be reported to the proper authorities if that is your chapter's procedure.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2018, 09:00:06 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2018, 12:33:32 PM »
Fortunately for us NCAA-ish rules workers we can just say "the choice is obvious" and then proceed with declining the OH and ending the game with no input whatsoever from a captain or a coach :)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2018, 01:44:10 PM »
...with no input whatsoever from a captain or a coach :)

Now, I like that. :)

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2018, 10:41:15 PM »
To paraphrase Mr. Berra, "it ain't over till it's over, but when it's over, it's really done".

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2018, 08:22:28 AM »
We hade a situation similar to this on the last play of the first half, where there was a choice to be made. Fellow  z^ ,put on your Monday morning coach's cap and give me your choice :)......

1st & 10 @ A's 20, 0:10 left in 2nd qtr :

(1) A passes, B1 intercepts @ A's 40;

(2) on the return, B2 blocks in back @ A's 25 ^flag;

(3) B1 is pushed OOB @ A's 10;

(4) A1 then hits B1 OOB  ^flag ^flag;

(5) clock reads 0:00.

On this, probably should take A's captain to his coach and explain options...what are they  ??? ??? ?

Let's play "coach" , which option would you choose  :o ??? ::) ??

« Last Edit: May 04, 2018, 08:24:00 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Kalle

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2018, 08:26:32 AM »
On this, probably should take A's captain to explain options...what are they  ??? ??? ?

Let's play "coach" , which option would you choose  :o ??? ::) ??

Team B 1/10 at A-20 (unlikely) or 2nd half kickoff 15 yards towards team A's goal line (highly likely). I'm selecting the kickoff enforcement any time, unless team B is a pure passing team and there's a blizzard still going on expected to go away by the start of the second half. But this isn't obvious in my book so I'm letting the captain choose his/her poison.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2018, 08:53:31 AM »
Kalle  aWaRd nailed it , both a  z^ and as a  tR:oLl coach !

I first took B's captain over to A's and began to explain...

A's captain stopped me and said: "Ref, my head's about to explode, can we ask coach?"

Both captains and I go over to A's coach, there I explained : "If you accept their penalty, we will tack on yours and give them an untimed down from your 20. If you decline theirs, your penalty will be tacked on to the 2nd half kickoff. "

A's coach then asked : "Do they have a good field goal kicker  ::) ::) ?"

The  game was still scoreless, and I responded : "I don't know, but they did kick the opening kickoff into the end zone..." I wanted to ask why he called a pass play deep in his own territory with 10 seconds left  8] ;but decided  :-X not.

A's coach declined B's penalty.

B's coach then asked : "Why don't we get an untimed down  ??? ??? ?

I responded : "Because THEY don't want you to."

B's coach responded ; "Oh."

    ......AND THE BAND PLAYED ON

PS : B WON THE GAME.

 

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 04:40:24 PM »
This is what I think about when Iím stuck in traffic.

EDIT: Team B leads 28-24.

3rd and 10 for Team A at the B 35. :02 left in the 4th quarter. A7 throws an incomplete pass and time expires. However thereís a flag for holding on Team A. While the crew is discussing the foul, B20 makes an obscene gesture toward the crowd which is noticed by the back judge, who throws the flag. Because the game has not been declared over yet, do we give Team A a the penalty and the untimed down? Iím leaning toward yes.

The answer is no. If the B foul was a live ball foul, the penalties would offset, and we would replay 3rd down. However, when a dead ball penalty is involved (unless there are equal distances), penalties are enforced separately in the order of occurrence: i.e. the live-ball holding foul would have been enforced, and then the B unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. But, B will decline the penalty for A's holding foul. Because the B20 obscene gesture falls under Unsportsmanlike Conduct (one of the 5 SLUNS exceptions to the untimed down rule (Safety (fouls resulting in a safety), Loss of Down, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, Nonplayer, Succeeding Spot)), there is no untimed down.  By rule, the game is over.

By the way, this was the rule that was enforced incorrectly in the controversial Central Michigan-Oklahoma State game. The CMU quarterback committed intentional grounding on 4th down, with no time remaining in the game. Because intentional grounding is a loss of down foul, there should not have been an untimed down. 

Offline J12

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2018, 08:28:04 PM »
Looking again at the original scenario.  I'm the Coach of B and I've been having issues with unsportsmanlike behavior on the part of my team.  I want my team to feel consequences for the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.  Could I (through my captain, of course), accept the holding penalty?  Would that then make the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty enforceable and we'd have an untimed down?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Hypothetical untimed down situation
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2018, 09:26:24 PM »
Looking again at the original scenario.  I'm the Coach of B and I've been having issues with unsportsmanlike behavior on the part of my team.  I want my team to feel consequences for the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty.  Could I (through my captain, of course), accept the holding penalty?  Would that then make the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty enforceable and we'd have an untimed down?

Yes, you could, and I hope it works out for you.