Author Topic: I'm thinking safety  (Read 559 times)

Offline SCHSref

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I'm thinking safety
« on: June 26, 2018, 10:12:29 AM »
A17 throws a pass into B's endzone and is intercepted by B6.  B6 runs out of the EZ and is at the B 10 when B9 initiates an illegal BSB on A2 in the side zone area out of bounds adjacent to the endzone.  B6 is downed at the B 30.
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2018, 10:17:25 AM »
I'm thinking 1st and 10 for B at the 15 after the personal foul, mainly because the contact was clearly out of bounds...

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2018, 10:35:57 AM »
IMHO,

OOB illegal contact while the ball is still alive is a live ball personal foul.

Runner was only at B's 10 when foul occurred = live ball.

If the foul occurred outside of B's 2 = ball spotted at B's 1.

If the foul occurred outside of B's EZ = safety.

IMHO, 'tis time for some seaweed salad.  tiphat:

 .

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2018, 11:08:42 AM »
Agree, the critical factor is WHEN the foul occurred (Status of the play-Live ball/Dead-ball).  NFHS: 2-16-2-a "Dead Ball- a foul which occurs ...after a down has ended...". 2-16-2-d "Live Ball- a foul which occurs during a down". 

"All but one" designates the enforcement spot as "Spot of the foul", Football Fundamental X-6 "Penalty Measurement" fixes that spot at "behind the offender's goal line toward his end line", making no distinction between in-bounds or OOB, resulting in a Safety.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2018, 05:12:41 PM »
I'll defer to the experts here, but here's my question. If this foul occurred between the goal lines, and all the action was oob, how would you determine the yard line? for instance, if A66 chased B22 Oob and hit him there, would that be the same thing? If so, how far oob would the block/hit have to be before it's no longer on the field of play?

The thing that's hanging me up is the way the OP reads, the contact was not on the field of play or in the end zone.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 05:14:19 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Etref

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2018, 06:52:26 PM »
Where the flag landed?
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2018, 09:03:15 PM »
I'll defer to the experts here, but here's my question. If this foul occurred between the goal lines, and all the action was oob, how would you determine the yard line? for instance, if A66 chased B22 Oob and hit him there, would that be the same thing? If so, how far oob would the block/hit have to be before it's no longer on the field of play?

The thing that's hanging me up is the way the OP reads, the contact was not on the field of play or in the end zone.

The borders of "The Field of Play" is defined in NFHS 2-10-1 & 2.  The only specifications, for the confines of OOB ( I can find) is in NFHS 4-3-2 "If the OOB spot is behind a goal line, it is a safety, FG or touchback.",and/or NFHS 2-29-1 "A player or other person is OOB when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on, or outside the sideline or endline (but it doesn't indicate and limitation to how far OOB extends).

So it would appear determining the actual spot of an OOB foul would (like so may spots) be determined by the covering official. (either "behind the goal line, or not).
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 09:10:12 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2018, 07:13:44 AM »
Guys, we shouldn't confuse this with the typical OOB late hit - a foul that occurred when the ball was already dead. Here the ball was still alive, after COP ,so the all-but-one would apply. How would you determine the yardline extended OOB where the foul occurred - you would need to estimate - if it was near the goalline and I was unsure, I would probably rule it occurred at the one. I would also probably root for the Red Sox this weekend on their series with the Yanks.

Some of you may disagree on one or both. We can't agree on everything.

 tR:oLl

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2018, 09:36:46 AM »
Obviously a different code, but NCAA defines the spot of this foul as the spot where the blocker went out of bounds. Maybe NFHS should add a similar definition.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2018, 01:04:49 PM »
Here's a question that indicates why I'm unclear. Suppose a WR runs a route, goes OOB, and while the pass is in the air, B pushes him. Is that DPI? I vaguely remember that discussion on this board. If you argue that's not a foul because he was OOB, it's hard to imagine calling the foul in this situation a live-ball foul that occurs OOB. IMO, it's a personal foul for hitting a player who is clearly OOB.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2018, 04:40:08 PM »
Trying to compare, or justify two completely different situations, generically, is a dangerous road to travel.  No two football plays, much less no two football games have ever, or likely will ever, be EXACTLY alike.  I would recommend judging each play observed on it's own merits, applied to the relevant rule, and avoid "Yeah but" or "What if"hypothetical speculations.

Choices we each get to determine.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2018, 10:47:05 AM »
I agree completely, and if that's what I have done, please forgive me. I'm still having trouble with the oob aspect of this though. I've never run across a situation like this, where a player is clearly oob and another player hit him without it being a personal foul. I also realize the vast majority of the time the ball is already dead and the hit is on the ball carrier. So what y'all are saying philosophically is that even though a defender is OOB, we can still throw a flag for holding, PI, BSB, etc. Is that right? I admit I can't find any rule support in the book. but I also can't find anything specific that covers this play. I had always ASSUMED that if the player was OOB he/she had taken themselves out of the play, and any contact would be a personal foul.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: I'm thinking safety
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2018, 12:44:03 PM »
I've never run across a situation like this, where a player is clearly oob and another player hit him without it being a personal foul. I also realize the vast majority of the time the ball is already dead and the hit is on the ball carrier. I had always ASSUMED that if the player was OOB he/she had taken themselves out of the play, and any contact would be a personal foul.

Maybe the confusion is caused more by focusing on "where" the personal foul happened instead of "when" it happened.  The first question is WHEN did the PF happen (during the play=live ball foul (in this case "all-but-one" (behind the goal line) =safety), after the play ended= DB foul (succeeding spot),

As for other than a PF, (holding) the advantage/disadvantage philosophy, regarding a foul OOB would likely prevent a flag (unless flagrant- which would then likely elevate the call to PF).