Author Topic: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)  (Read 1034 times)

Offline BG5

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Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« on: November 08, 2018, 05:26:35 AM »
Gents,

Have a few questions on punt plays.  Weather forecast calling for 20-40 mph winds which will cause some short punts.

 Play 1
K lines up in punt formation at the 10 yard line.  They punt the ball and it goes 10 yards beyond the expanded neutral zone and lands around the 20 - 22 yard line where R muffs the ball causing it to go across the neutral zone again and finally stops at the 5 yard line where k5 picks it up and runs for a first down.

Have a few questions for you.

1.  K still has the right to advance this for a first down correct?

2.  We would not blow it dead when k picks it up because itís behind line of scrimmage correct?



Play 2
4th an 10.  K lines up in punt formation and punts from the 1 yard line in very windy conditions.  K punts the ball and it goes straight upon air and lands at the 3 1/2 yard line where r3 muffs ball.  The  ball is recovered by k4 at the 4 yard line.

3.  It would be first and 10 for k since the ball passed the expanded neutral zone correct?
4.  In 5 man mechanics should the BJ run up on short punts like this to help rule on things like first touching etc?  Or stay back and let U and LOS rule?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 07:07:55 AM »
Gents,

Have a few questions on punt plays.  Weather forecast calling for 20-40 mph winds which will cause some short punts.

 Play 1
K lines up in punt formation at the 10 yard line.  They punt the ball and it goes 10 yards beyond the expanded neutral zone and lands around the 20 - 22 yard line where R muffs the ball causing it to go across the neutral zone again and finally stops at the 5 yard line where k5 picks it up and runs for a first down.

Have a few questions for you.

1.  K still has the right to advance this for a first down correct?
YES

2.  We would not blow it dead when k picks it up because itís behind line of scrimmage correct?
CORRECT

Play 2
4th an 10.  K lines up in punt formation and punts from the 1 yard line in very windy conditions.  K punts the ball and it goes straight upon air and lands at the 3 1/2 yard line where r3 muffs ball.  The  ball is recovered by k4 at the 4 yard line.

3.  It would be first and 10 for k since the ball passed the expanded neutral zone correct?
CORRECT

4.  In 5 man mechanics should the BJ run up on short punts like this to help rule on things like first touching etc?  Or stay back and let U and LOS rule?
I WIULD BE VERY CAREFUL BEFORE INSTRUCTING MY BJ TO RUN UP ON THIS PLAY. AFTER ALL, there are at least 3 up there close. If it happens like I picture it in my mind he wouldnít get there in time to be much help. However, he could move in that direction and keep his eyes open for such.



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Offline FLAHL

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 07:22:52 AM »
The mechanics change you might consider for 5man is keeping your LJ on the LoS rather than having him release with the snap. If youíre concerned that a punt might not cross the LoS, thereís not much chance of it going 40 yards downfield.  Agree with Calhoun - BJ isnít going to be much help here, even if he cheats up 10 or 15 yards.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 07:49:53 AM »
There are two principles to remember that will make officiating these unusual kick plays easier for you:

(1). Once R touches the kick past the ENZ, it will be 1/10 for whichever team is in possession at the end of the down.

(2)  If K recovers a kick behind the LOS (regardless of how it got there), they may do anything they could have done before the kick ó run, pass or kick again.

Online PABJNR

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2018, 10:33:52 AM »
There are two principles to remember that will make officiating these unusual kick plays easier for you:

(1). Once R touches the kick past the ENZ, it will be 1/10 for whichever team is in possession at the end of the down.

(2)  If K recovers a kick behind the LOS (regardless of how it got there), they may do anything they could have done before the kick — run, pass or kick again.

In (1) if it is a high kick, the ENZ disintegrates and if R touches it beyond the NZ it will be K's ball if they recover.  Only touching of low kicks are ignored in the ENZ.
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2018, 11:29:08 AM »
When a punt is touched beyond LOS by R and bounces back behind the LOS where K recovers, he has the best of both worlds.

WHERE R TOUCHED THE KICK BEYOND the LOS, K's possession = 1st down.

WHERE K RECOVERED THE KICK BEHIND the LOS, he can advance it = 1st down where his run ends.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2018, 08:10:35 AM »
Now a trivia question for you guys.....

(1) 4/10 @50, K1's kick hits R1 helmet @ R's 45 and rebounds back to K's 45;
(2) K2 recovers the kick there and....
   (a) throws an incomplete pass without ineligibles downfield;
   (b) throws an incomplete pass with ineligibles downfield;
   (c) throws a complete pass to eligible K2 @ K's 49, who advances to R's 42;
   (d) throws a complete pass to ineligible K3 @ K's 49
   (e) K2 kicks that goes OOB @ R's 30.




 

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2018, 01:41:00 PM »
Now a trivia question for you guys.....

(1) 4/10 @50, K1's kick hits R1 helmet @ R's 45 and rebounds back to K's 45;
(2) K2 recovers the kick there and....
   (a) throws an incomplete pass without ineligibles downfield;
   (b) throws an incomplete pass with ineligibles downfield;
   (c) throws a complete pass to eligible K2 @ K's 49, who advances to R's 42;
   (d) throws a complete pass to ineligible K3 @ K's 49
   (e) K2 kicks that goes OOB @ R's 30.

OK Ralph, I'll try it.  I believe K gets a new series in a, b, c, and d.  The question is where?
a) 1/10 for K at the 50
b) 1/10 for K at their own 40 (after 5 yard penalty for ineligible downfield from the spot where he threw the ball)
c) 1/10 for K at the R 42
d) 1/10 for K at their own 40 (same 5 yard penalty for illegal touching.  No LoD because K gets a new series)
e) 1/10 for R at R 30

Rather get these wrong on here on Monday than on the field on Friday :)

Offline Ump33

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2018, 02:25:12 PM »
Now a trivia question for you guys.....

My answers are in Blue.

(1) 4/10 @50, K1's kick hits R1 helmet @ R's 45 and rebounds back to K's 45;
(2) K2 recovers the kick there and....
   (a) throws an incomplete pass without ineligibles downfield; ... New series for K 1/10 @50
   (b) throws an incomplete pass with ineligibles downfield;  ... If the foul is accepted, 5 yards previous spot and K's ball 1/10 @ K's 45
   (c) throws a complete pass to eligible K2 @ K's 49, who advances to R's 42;  ... Legal play and new series for K 1/10 @ R's 42
   (d) throws a complete pass to ineligible K3 @ K's 49  ... If the foul is accepted, 5 yards from K's 49 & K's ball 1/10 @K's 44
   (e) K2 kicks that goes OOB @ R's 30. ... R's ball 1/10 @ R's 30

Note: Clock starts on the snap in each (3-4-3c)

See Rule 5-2-2 and CB 5.1.3 C

« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 04:41:00 PM by Ump33 »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 10:38:29 AM »
CONGRATS, Ump33, YA NAILED 'EM ALL... aWaRd

Things to remember on these wacky plays.....

Nothing has occurred to dissolve the neutral zone.

By rule, K has a new series.

In (e), K's punt is sorta' like punting on 1st down-ball was given up via kick.

GREAT JOB, UMP 33

Offline BG5

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 09:44:35 AM »
Gents,

Need help with 1 more play to make sure I am understanding this correctly,

Play 3

4th and 20 from the 5 yard  yard line and K punts the ball  out of their own endzone.  The punt goes pretty much straight up in air and hits R2 at the 7 yard line.  The ball then rolls to the 10 yard line where K7 jumps on it.

This ball should be first and 10 for R on the 10 yard line as the touching occured in the expanded neutral zone correct?

Online PABJNR

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 10:42:34 AM »
Gents,

Need help with 1 more play to make sure I am understanding this correctly,

Play 3

4th and 20 from the 5 yard  yard line and K punts the ball  out of their own endzone.  The punt goes pretty much straight up in air and hits R2 at the 7 yard line.  The ball then rolls to the 10 yard line where K7 jumps on it.

This ball should be first and 10 for R on the 10 yard line as the touching occured in the expanded neutral zone correct?

It will be 1st & 10 for K, touching in the expanded neutral zone is only ignored on a low scrimmage kick.  Refer to case book 6.2.6 SITUATION on this topic for support. 
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!

Online js in sc

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 11:20:55 AM »
It will be 1st & 10 for K, touching in the expanded neutral zone is only ignored on a low scrimmage kick.  Refer to case book 6.2.6 SITUATION on this topic for support.
To expand on this, SITUATION 6-2-6 states, "The ENZ disintegrates immediately when the kick has crossed the ENZ or when the trajectory is such that it cannot be touched until it comes down."

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 12:09:36 PM »
To add another element to this...

Airborne punt hits B2 in the helmet at K's 7 and bounces off a properly placed pylon.

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL

 ^talk ^talk yEs: (5 MAN CREW)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 01:34:36 PM »
Safety.  Kick is blocked in the expanded NZ and ends up OB in the end zone.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Online PABJNR

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 04:14:53 PM »
To add another element to this...

Airborne punt hits B2 in the helmet at K's 7 and bounces off a properly placed pylon.

[/YOU MAKE THE CALL

 ^talk ^talk yEs: (5 MAN CREW)

Safety...the force is the kick, a new force was not added because there was not muff, bat or illegal kick........even if there was a muff or bat, it was in flight.....can't have a new force on a ball in flight....in this play the yard line or neutral zone or expanded neutral zone do not matter...the force is still K's kick...out of bounds in K's endzone in K's possesion...Safety.
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 07:24:25 AM »
OK Ralph, I'll try it.  I believe K gets a new series in a, b, c, and d.  The question is where?
a) 1/10 for K at the 50
b) 1/10 for K at their own 40 (after 5 yard penalty for ineligible downfield from the spot where he threw the ball)
c) 1/10 for K at the R 42
d) 1/10 for K at their own 40 (same 5 yard penalty for illegal touching.  No LoD because K gets a new series)
e) 1/10 for R at R 30

Rather get these wrong on here on Monday than on the field on Friday :)
FLAHL, good try. Remember, the neutral zone is still intact, so in (b) the enforcement spot is the previous spot = 1/10 @ K's 45.
In (d) the enforcement spot is the spot of the illegal touch as it occurred behind the LOS.  Had the IT occurred downfield, it would have been a loose ball play with previous spot enforcement.
Thanks for trying. Kick plays can become more complex than counting ballots in your/our sunny state!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 07:30:53 AM »
Safety...the force is the kick, a new force was not added because there was not muff, bat or illegal kick........even if there was a muff or bat, it was in flight.....can't have a new force on a ball in flight....in this play the yard line or neutral zone or expanded neutral zone do not matter...the force is still K's kick...out of bounds in K's endzone in K's possesion...Safety.
Congrats, PABJNR,  aWaRd a new force can't be added until the kick has reached Earth. Same would also be true of a fumble or backward pass that was muffed while still airborne.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 07:37:22 AM »
Safety.  Kick is blocked in the expanded NZ and ends up OB in the end zone.
Poor wording on my part, NVFOA, your result was correct = safety  aWaRd. I had intended the question to imply that a high kick had bounced off R's helmet (who was sleeping with his eyes open :)). The ENZ would have disappeared per Case 6.2.6.

Offline sj

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 11:15:56 AM »
Based on the 6-2-6 discussion in the case book what do you have for these two.

1) A 4/10 @ A32. The snap goes over the punters head. He recovers the ball, turns quickly, and gets the punt off. The punt goes high in the air and is coming down at the A25 yard line where B90 reaches up to catch it. He muffs it and the ball falls to the ground where it is recovered by a grounded A41.

2) A 4/10 @ A32. The snap goes over the punters head. He recovers the ball, turns quickly, and gets the punt off. The punt goes high in the air and is coming down at the A25 yard line where B90 is going to try to catch it. Itís just about to reach B90 when A41 jumps up and catches the ball and goes to the ground at the A25.

Offline Stinterp

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2018, 12:19:55 PM »
1.  B 1/10 @ A25

2. Same

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #21 on: November 16, 2018, 07:36:08 AM »
A punt that has yet to cross the LOS is very similar to a fumble. K can recover and advance it but would need to reach the line to gain for a new series even if R had touched it first. Behind the LOS all bets are off for first touching, KCI and the like. MOOKIE BETTS - AL MVP.

Offline sj

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #22 on: November 16, 2018, 11:03:59 AM »
1.  B 1/10 @ A25

2. Same

I agree with these but it seems the language in case 6.2.6 Situation D is a bit confusing.

Concerning the play where the trajectory of a punt is such that the ball won't be touched until it comes down..... Do they mean to say that when this occurs the ENZ disintegrates but the regular NZ does not?

Starting with the sentence..."Low scrimmage kicks may touch or be touched.....", they use the term expanded neutral zone. Then in the next sentence they just use zone and then expanded zone. Then they go back to just zone followed in the last sentence where they use just neutral zone. While I get the intent this might could be cleaned up unless I’m just not being a careful enough reader.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 11:14:09 AM by sj »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2018, 10:05:06 AM »
The verbiage of 6-2-6 is to prevent a low, line drive kick bouncing off big ole' Bubba's (O-lineman) butt from being treated as first touching if he is in the expanded neutral zone OR to prevent Tugboat (nose guard) from trying to block said kick while leaping in the ENZ from being treated as touching by R downfield. There is often sound reasoning behind the rules and that's the reasoning behind this one. Hope it helps to clarify.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Punt plays - they are always an issue :)
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 07:38:34 AM »
To paraphrase the OP, zany things can often occur on punts. Two of the zaniest ,in my lifetime, occurred on punts that didn't cross the LOS:

Game clock operator at a DIII NCAA game.
 (1) K's ball ,4/10 @K's 20;
 (2) snap sails over punter's K1 head and into EZ;
 (3) K1 scoops up the bad snap in his EZ under pressure by R;
 (4) K1 kicks a weak grounder;
 (5) K2 -a big ole' Bubba- fields grounder @K's 15;
 (6) Bubba stands, holding the ball, as both teams head towards sidelines;
 (7) Bubba then pitches ball to surprised  sNiCkErS umpire  sNiCkErS;
 (8) Umpire quickly drops the ball and whistles blow;
 (9)  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ conference;
(10) WH gives signal #10 followed by signal #8 - new series for R.

The PA announcer (a veteran official) and I weren't sure what just happened. He announced : "Penalty declined,____'s ball". As always, I checked in with the crew at halftime. Their explanation of the happening was : "Everything was legal, and Bubba's pass to the ump was incomplete = 1st down R from LOS."  :P I couldn't resist but ask : were there any ineligibles downfield or eligible in the area of the 'pass'  :o ;D ??" They  >:( politely told me to ;"Git the $%^& outa'here!"

Bubba had passes up the chance of becoming the homecoming hero ( and first dance with the homecoming queen) by running for a TD as both teams were heading toward the sidelines. Bubba instead chose to become a passer with a
0-1 completion record :( :-\ :'(.

A few years ago, this occurred in a HS season opener - I was the WH:

 (1) K up by 3, 4/10 @ 50;
 (2) R brings all 11 in attempt to block;
 (3) punter just gets the kick off and it goes nearly straight up;
 (4) as the ball comes down several R players are yelling "stay away,stay away" to their teammates;
 (5) Big ole' Bubba -OG -fields the kick and looks back at me :-\ ;
 (6) both teams are now looking at me, I wanted to hum "Mr. Touchdown";
 (7) One of Bubba's teammates said : "Run and see what happens  ::)";
 (8) Bubba began to run, R players began to chase him;
 (9) Bubba gained 15 and a new series before he was caught.

R's coach asked for a conference timeout , and inquired : "He can't do that....can he ??? :o ??? ?"

My response was : "Coach, a kick that hasn't crossed the line of scrimmage is just like a fumble  8]."

My question to you guys is there are at least two differences between a fumble and a kick that hasn't crossed the LOS, can you name them?