Author Topic: NFHS Rules Survey  (Read 1099 times)

Offline HLinNC

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NFHS Rules Survey
« on: November 30, 2018, 09:37:13 AM »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2018, 10:44:05 AM »
Are they considering eliminating the kickoff?  Also, looks like the 40 second clock is headed our way sooner or later.

Offline riffraft

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2018, 10:53:10 AM »
Are they considering eliminating the kickoff?  Also, looks like the 40 second clock is headed our way sooner or later.

I consistently oppose the 40 second clock, but I think it is inevitable.

Interesting the idea of delaying rule changes that are not safety issue for one year before implementation. I assume it is to deal with wording, interpretation issues, etc.. While many people point out issues with the new rules before the season starts, I think most of the issues are exposed by the playing out of them on the field.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2018, 05:53:16 AM »
Multiple “personnel” fouls?  Good grief.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2018, 06:11:45 PM »
Are they considering eliminating the kickoff?  Also, looks like the 40 second clock is headed our way sooner or later.

I hope they act smart with removing the kickoff, and don't just remove it and "receiving team gets the ball at the 20/25/wherever". They should implement the Schiano rule. I would be really interested to see that in practice.

I also hope they give us enough lead time with the 40 second clock that Ready Ref doesn't have availability issues. I need to get one, but have been putting it off. I had several games at BJ this year where teams had NO on field play clock at all, let alone one they could repurpose into a 25/40.

Interesting the idea of delaying rule changes that are not safety issue for one year before implementation. I assume it is to deal with wording, interpretation issues, etc.. While many people point out issues with the new rules before the season starts, I think most of the issues are exposed by the playing out of them on the field.

I'm thinking this directly derives from the "kick down" concerns this year. It came up very quickly before the season and got inconsistently interpreted nationwide.

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 06:57:02 AM »
the drawback I see with 40 is BJ is generally cleaning up after a play and then we get the rfp after everyone, including BJ, is RFP.

If/when we get a 40, the BJ must be mindful and change his mehanics a bit to do the 40 and then do whatever cleaning up is needed

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2018, 08:21:11 AM »
There is going be a huge gap in efficiency between a 5 man crew and an 8 man college crew. I dread it. Who is going to educate all the :25 clock operators who are not officials? Will they have to know when the clock is supposed to read 40 or 25?


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2018, 04:05:20 PM »
If you are looking to get the ready ref get the universal one it has dip switches that change between 25/60 and 25/40. That was if 40 second clock is implemented you just change the dip switch.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 09:59:12 AM »
If you haven't yet taken the survey, please do...These are given strong consideration when the rules committee meets. If you're like me and are an opponent of the 40" clock, please respond as such. It was only defeated by a couple of votes last year and can again provide ammo for it's defeat with your vote.

The survey ,being open to all, gives us all a chance to vote. It's been this way for the last few years, as before each state was allocated a number of votes -depending on their number of football programs - to be assigned to coaches, officials and administrators.

 PLEASE VOTE !!!!!

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 11:45:26 AM »
If you haven't yet taken the survey, please do...These are given strong consideration when the rules committee meets. If you're like me and are an opponent of the 40" clock, please respond as such. It was only defeated by a couple of votes last year and can again provide ammo for it's defeat with your vote.

The survey ,being open to all, gives us all a chance to vote. It's been this way for the last few years, as before each state was allocated a number of votes -depending on their number of football programs - to be assigned to coaches, officials and administrators.

 PLEASE VOTE !!!!!
For those who are an opponent, there is no opportinuty for explanation.
As I explained:
the drawback I see with 40 is BJ is generally cleaning up after a play and then we get the rfp after everyone, including BJ, is RFP.
If/when we get a 40, the BJ must be mindful and change his mehanics a bit to do the 40 and then do whatever cleaning up is needed.
PLUS, it seems more common than not that nationwide that there are no 25 clocks - meaning the end-of-play BJ mechanic will probably be lost = loss of safety too.

BUT, if they want to go with 40 that will almost certainly mean: either bigger crews = bigger money with another crewmember; or dedicated 40/25 operator which is more money too - along with a new 40/25 clock if a school even has one.

All this while schools cant pay bills to begin with.

all in all, I would favor 40, IF the economics support it. 
But it seems while it may be positive for the game it would stress the taxpayers more than it would improve the game.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 01:03:09 PM »
BUT, if they want to go with 40 that will almost certainly mean: either bigger crews = bigger money with another crewmember; or dedicated 40/25 operator which is more money too - along with a new 40/25 clock if a school even has one.

All this while schools cant pay bills to begin with.

all in all, I would favor 40, IF the economics support it. 
But it seems while it may be positive for the game it would stress the taxpayers more than it would improve the game.

Depends where you are.

We use 4 officials for most varsity games. No BJ. Parents volunteer for the chain crew, and most clocks are operated by volunteers as well.

We've had many games where the clock operator is so bad that the LJ has to time the game as well as do his other duties. We get by.


Offline FLAHL

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2018, 08:16:33 AM »

We use 4 officials for most varsity games. No BJ. Parents volunteer for the chain crew, and most clocks are operated by volunteers as well.


bbeagle, do you have a shortage of officials or schools who can't/won't pay for 5?   tiphat: for even attempting to work a varsity game with 4 officials.  I hope (but don't expect) that coaches would understand your situation.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2018, 08:41:52 AM »
Several of our schools still only hire 4 officials and all our schools only use 3 for sub-varsity. The duty of managing the 40" clock falls on the white hat--as if he doesn't have enough to do. The mechanic we use on 3 man is R & 2 wings. With no RFP under 40" (the U merely steps away from the ball) , the R would have to quite nimble to spot the ball and get positioned before the ball is snapped.

To quote one of our veteran coaches : "Seems like a lot of work to 'fix' a problem we didn't know we had :o "i

Offline bbeagle

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2018, 03:17:30 PM »
bbeagle, do you have a shortage of officials or schools who can't/won't pay for 5?   tiphat: for even attempting to work a varsity game with 4 officials.  I hope (but don't expect) that coaches would understand your situation.

We have a shortage now, but that's not the real reason - it's always been this way. Most schools won't pay for more than 4. Some schools do - maybe 20% of varsity games have 5 officials.


Offline JasonTX

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2018, 07:56:38 PM »
We have a shortage now, but that's not the real reason - it's always been this way. Most schools won't pay for more than 4. Some schools do - maybe 20% of varsity games have 5 officials.

Never played hard ball with them?  We only send 5 for eleven man varsity.  If a team ever suggested that we only send 4 they would not be getting them from us.  Take 5 or take 0, your pick.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 11:06:19 AM »
Several of our schools still use 4,  but a list of advantages we presented caused many schools to move from 4 to 5....

(1) A football pass travels a lot faster then even the fleetest of feet of our wing officials. The BJ will always be deeper then the deepest receiver.

(2) Long runs can leave some of our wing officials in the dust. The BJ will be on the goal line to make that critical call.

(3) Field goals and kick tries will have an official at each post. An accurate call will be made, not the referee trying to guess if a hooking kick passed inside or outside of the post.

(4) The BJ will be timing the 25" clock and give you a "poor man's stop watch" count down signal for the last 5". He will be watching A/K's coach to see if he wants to burn a TO to save a DOG.

These helped sell several of the schools that the 5th man didn't just make our job easier, but provided better game coverage.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 12:03:37 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bbeagle

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 02:55:35 PM »
Never played hard ball with them?  We only send 5 for eleven man varsity.  If a team ever suggested that we only send 4 they would not be getting them from us.  Take 5 or take 0, your pick.

It's probably different in Texas.

We have a single contract through ALL the schools in our area for ALL sports. These contracts last about 5 years, and on every renewal are negotiated between the schools and a member of each sports officiating organization.

Whatever comes out of the negotiations, we have to live with - or not officiate at all. For varsity football in our area, it's designated as 4 or 5 officials (school discretion).

Some schools are willing to change the contract to pay 5 officials every game - if we lower our fees so it's the same cost to them for 5 officials vs. 4. We have always declined that 'offer'. Other schools think that the only thing that adding a 5th official will accomplish is adding 20% more penalties to each game.
 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 03:03:09 PM by bbeagle »

Offline FLAHL

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 03:07:04 PM »

Some schools are willing to change the contract to pay 5 officials every game - if we lower our fees so it's the same cost to them for 5 officials vs. 4.
 

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Offline CK51

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2018, 07:32:39 AM »
I hope they act smart with removing the kickoff, and don't just remove it and "receiving team gets the ball at the 20/25/wherever". They should implement the Schiano rule. I would be really interested to see that in practice.
I love the idea of the Schiano rule but I worry it could be abused if one team is far superior to the other. Still probably preferable to kids getting crushed on the kick-off return team though.

Offline scrounge

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2018, 07:51:09 PM »
I'm not a huge fan of the Schiano proposal, as it still would involve a kick play in many cases, with plenty of blindside block potential, even with the outlawing of it a couple yrs ago. But I'd still like to keep the possibility of the onsides kick for those rare situations when needed.

What about the scoring team either designating that the receiving team can either take the ball on their 25 or the scoring team will be kicking. If they kick, the receiving team's 40 would be treated like the goal line, any kick that goes past it is a dead ball and treated like a touchback, either placed right there at the 40 or 50, doesn't much matter at that point. That gives a 20 yard band from 40 to 40 to execute an onsides kick, reduces the velocities, and would be pretty rare since true onsides kick situations don't come up all that often. No deep pooch kicks, relatively simple mechanics, no major rules changes required other than the touchback line now being the R40 instead of the GL.

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 08:41:16 PM »
I agree I'm not sure what we're really trying to solve.  While I doubt we're going to have too many problems with 40/25, I think it's tougher with majority 5 man HS crews, HS chains, and HS clock keepers.

I tracked our timing for about half the season.  These are deadball to ready for play.  I don't know if formatting will come through.

Game   AVG Whistle to spot   AVG Spot to RFP   Total
1                 8.7                            3.8              12.5
2                 7.3                           4.5                   11.8
3                 7.6                        3.4                   11.0
4                 7.2                        3.6               10.8
5                 7.8                         4.2              12.0
6                 7.0                         3.7              10.7
Averages         7.6                        3.9               11.5
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Offline stevegarbs

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2018, 02:43:24 PM »

(4) The BJ will be timing the 25" clock and give you a "poor man's stop watch" count down signal for the last 5". He will be watching A/K's coach to see if he wants to burn a TO to save a DOG.



Ralph I am curious about your choice of words here- in my area we see the last-5-seconds-countdown by the BJ to be a point of reference for an offense that is trying to burn up clock (on-field play clocks are a rarity), not just a last chance reminder to avoid a delay penalty.


It has trickled down to the youth level, which can be tough when working only 3- or 4-man crews.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2018, 09:32:53 AM »

Ralph I am curious about your choice of words here- in my area we see the last-5-seconds-countdown by the BJ to be a point of reference for an offense that is trying to burn up clock (on-field play clocks are a rarity), not just a last chance reminder to avoid a delay penalty.


It has trickled down to the youth level, which can be tough when working only 3- or 4-man crews.

While most coaches instruct their QBs to watch the BJ's countdown for running out the clock, we have our BJs do the countdown on every play. He'll keep one eye on the coach of offense to see if he chooses a TO. 3 & 4 man crews don't get the "poor man's stop watch. The number of play clocks on HS fields in Maine could be counted with no hands.

Offline Magician

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 12:38:46 AM »
There is going be a huge gap in efficiency between a 5 man crew and an 8 man college crew. I dread it. Who is going to educate all the :25 clock operators who are not officials? Will they have to know when the clock is supposed to read 40 or 25?
We are one of the experiment states so went through this. We have visible play clocks at most schools. Our clock operators are volunteers or school staff members that get a small fee. They are not officials. We had no issue with them transitioning from 25 to 40. There were occasionally bad ones but no worse than the 25 second clock. The biggest issue we had is the game clock operator not starting after a first down in bounds when the R winds it. We are instructed to not whistle those. It still happens occasionally but not often after 3 years.

As for when to use the 40 or 25, there is an easy rule of thumb. If it's a normal scrimmage play and the same team will snap it on the next play, set it to 40 and start it. If there is any administrative stop (i.e. score, flag, injury, measurement, time out, quarter change) set it to 25. When it doubt set it to 40 and the R will have you reset it to 25.

Offline Magician

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Re: NFHS Rules Survey
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2018, 12:48:45 AM »
I agree I'm not sure what we're really trying to solve.  While I doubt we're going to have too many problems with 40/25, I think it's tougher with majority 5 man HS crews, HS chains, and HS clock keepers.

I tracked our timing for about half the season.  These are deadball to ready for play.  I don't know if formatting will come through.

Game   AVG Whistle to spot   AVG Spot to RFP   Total
1                 8.7                            3.8              12.5
2                 7.3                           4.5                   11.8
3                 7.6                        3.4                   11.0
4                 7.2                        3.6               10.8
5                 7.8                         4.2              12.0
6                 7.0                         3.7              10.7
Averages         7.6                        3.9               11.5
Averages are good to look at but also look at the high and low ranges. Your range only gives a team 36 to 38 seconds before DOG on average. That's shorting them 2-4 seconds to get their play called and the ball snapped on average.

I've captured averages on games that still use the 25 second clock with a good crew and ball mechanics (state final game in other states) and it ranged from 8 seconds to 18 seconds with an average of 13.6.  A large number of them were 10 to 16 seconds but that was still a 6 second variance. That means on some plays the offense had 35 seconds to next snap the ball and sometimes had 41 seconds. That can be a pretty big variance if you have several in a row in the 38-40 range and then suddenly get a 34. The main benefit of the 40 second clock is that is automatically consistent. As the R you also don't have to worry about how quickly the ball gets spotted and determine if you should blow the ready quickly or wait 3-5 seconds.

Every state that has done this experiment loves it. That includes coaches, players, and officials. Every college official I know who has worked high school with a 25-second clock prefers. It's not a mixed opinion at all. Those without visible play clocks are probably pretty flexible already and you can still do that. If a team is pressing the end or you are you are getting close to the end of a half a team is trying to burn time then you can be more diligent like you are today. Colorado has experimented without visible play clocks and it's worked great for them as well.

The game goes much smoother at a more consistent pace. Once you get used to it and then have to go back to a 25-second clock you realize how clunky the 25-second clock can be. I got this feedback from a coach who traveled to another state for a game and they hated it.