Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 10626 times)

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Offline bigjohn

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #100 on: February 20, 2019, 09:33:43 AM »
https://ready-ref.com/nfhs-rule-change/nfhs-rule-change-personal-timers/

Or now you should wear 2 ready refs! More toys on the tool belt!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2019, 11:48:15 AM »
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.
When we added bridge fouls (8-2-3) in 2003, the concern was to carry over fouls that could have been cheap shots that occurred when a touchdown was apparent. It was then felt that if the foul occurred prior to COP, the fouling player wouldn't have known there was an apparent touchdown by the opponents was soon to happen. This prompted us to apply a bridge foul only if it occurred after COP. With that in mind, it would be hard for me to understand that if we had an IF on K and a TD return by R, the IF could be bridged over. I have a call in to the author and have the solution soon.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #102 on: February 20, 2019, 02:29:31 PM »
https://ready-ref.com/nfhs-rule-change/nfhs-rule-change-personal-timers/

Or now you should wear 2 ready refs! More toys on the tool belt!

Glad to see that you are still up and about, Big John. I hope your interest in Ready Ref shows an interest in joining the ranks of  z^ z^ z^ z^ z^ (5-man crew) ! Your post was the 100th on this topic as it enters rare air.

 :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR:  X   10   pHiNzuP

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #103 on: February 20, 2019, 04:22:57 PM »
When we added bridge fouls (8-2-3) in 2003, the concern was to carry over fouls that could have been cheap shots that occurred when a touchdown was apparent. It was then felt that if the foul occurred prior to COP, the fouling player wouldn't have known there was an apparent touchdown by the opponents was soon to happen. This prompted us to apply a bridge foul only if it occurred after COP. With that in mind, it would be hard for me to understand that if we had an IF on K and a TD return by R, the IF could be bridged over. I have a call in to the author and have the solution soon.

From a fundamental enforcement perspective, I agree with NOT allowing bridging for fouls prior to COP. In any other situation, if A fouls prior to a COP, B must decline the foul if they wish to keep the ball. It wouldn't make sense that they'd get to enforce the foul if they scored a TD, but not if he gets tackled at the 2.

I think this will be hard to fix without creating more exceptions and loopholes, but a definitive case play just so we're all on the same page would be nice at least.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2019, 09:28:17 AM »
From a fundamental enforcement perspective, I agree with NOT allowing bridging for fouls prior to COP. In any other situation, if A fouls prior to a COP, B must decline the foul if they wish to keep the ball. It wouldn't make sense that they'd get to enforce the foul if they scored a TD, but not if he gets tackled at the 2.

I think this will be hard to fix without creating more exceptions and loopholes, but a definitive case play just so we're all on the same page would be nice at least.
I don't think it would be hard. Just make it a requirement that the tack on option only applies if K fouls prior to the end of the kick and R will be next to snap the ball in a regular scrimmage play. That would eliminate the ability to tack on to a try or kickoff.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2019, 11:43:34 AM »
I don't think it would be hard. Just make it a requirement that the tack on option only applies if K fouls prior to the end of the kick and R will be next to snap the ball in a regular scrimmage play. That would eliminate the ability to tack on to a try or kickoff.

Ooh... hypothetical pot stirring time. K commits a foul prior to the end of the kick. What if R fair catches the kick and elects to put the ball in play by fair catch kick? Do they have to decline the foul because they don't put the ball in play via snap or in a "regular scrimmage play"?

There's also the issue of changes of possession after the end of the kick. K is in an illegal formation for a punt. R catches the ball, fumbles, K recovers, K blocks in the back, K fumbles and R recovers and is downed (ignoring possible TD enforcement for the moment). Can R enforce the IF foul from the succeeding spot, but not the block in the back? They should have to decline the BIB to keep the ball after that COP, but they don't have to do that for fouls prior to the end of a scrimmage kick? -- Or do they because the enforcement spot for the IF foul *should* be the end of R's initial run (spot of R's fumble), not the dead ball spot. (I don't think it is, but it should be).

Yeah, that won't happen, but it's high school football... crazy things happen on punt plays.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2019, 12:55:10 PM »
After further review from the replay official (author). ....

If the tack-on rule is to be applied, it is at succeeding spot. If there is a TD, the succeeding spot is the PAT. If the play ended at K's 2, the tack-on would be half the distance to K's 1.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #107 on: February 25, 2019, 05:36:52 PM »
Ooh... hypothetical pot stirring time. K commits a foul prior to the end of the kick. What if R fair catches the kick and elects to put the ball in play by fair catch kick? Do they have to decline the foul because they don't put the ball in play via snap or in a "regular scrimmage play"?

There's also the issue of changes of possession after the end of the kick. K is in an illegal formation for a punt. R catches the ball, fumbles, K recovers, K blocks in the back, K fumbles and R recovers and is downed (ignoring possible TD enforcement for the moment). Can R enforce the IF foul from the succeeding spot, but not the block in the back? They should have to decline the BIB to keep the ball after that COP, but they don't have to do that for fouls prior to the end of a scrimmage kick? -- Or do they because the enforcement spot for the IF foul *should* be the end of R's initial run (spot of R's fumble), not the dead ball spot. (I don't think it is, but it should be).

Yeah, that won't happen, but it's high school football... crazy things happen on punt plays.
If you want to keep it simple then don't allow the tack on if they decide to do the fair catch kick. We probably had 4 or 5 tack on enforcements on scrimmage kicks this year. I doubt we've had 4 or 5 fair catch kicks collectively on this board for our entire careers. I think we aren't going to create too many issues by keeping that simple.

You could write it either way as far as I'm concerned. R could lose the right to tack on any foul if they lose possessions after the kick ends (simplest option). Or if they at least have possession at the end of the down and didn't commit a foul before the last gaining possession, then they can have the tack on option for fouls prior to the end of the kick.

Doing bridge enforcements for non-UNS and non-PF is silly as is. To do it as a kick tack on is ridiculous. The idea of the tack on is to give the receiving team the option to enforce the penalty without having to rekick. If they are going to snap the ball at least they get some of that yardage. If they score, decline the penalty and move on.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #108 on: February 25, 2019, 09:21:56 PM »
If you want to keep it simple then don't allow the tack on if they decide to do the fair catch kick. We probably had 4 or 5 tack on enforcements on scrimmage kicks this year. I doubt we've had 4 or 5 fair catch kicks collectively on this board for our entire careers. I think we aren't going to create too many issues by keeping that simple.

I would disagree with this. Allow it for a fair catch kick, because the penalty yardage might encourage the kick.

You could write it either way as far as I'm concerned. R could lose the right to tack on any foul if they lose possessions after the kick ends (simplest option). Or if they at least have possession at the end of the down and didn't commit a foul before the last gaining possession, then they can have the tack on option for fouls prior to the end of the kick.

Doing bridge enforcements for non-UNS and non-PF is silly as is. To do it as a kick tack on is ridiculous. The idea of the tack on is to give the receiving team the option to enforce the penalty without having to rekick. If they are going to snap the ball at least they get some of that yardage. If they score, decline the penalty and move on.

IMHO, what needs to happen is that the basic spot for any of the "tack on" fouls can be a) the previous spot, b) a spot of first touching (if allowed as a succeeding spot) or c) the end of the related run immediately after the kick. If R loses possession of the ball, and then regains possession, after the kick, they can't enforce from the succeeding spot -- just as if it were any other scrimmage down.

As you were saying, if R scores on the return, since the foul happened prior to the COP, they must decline the foul.

Obviously that's not what the rule states, but in the world where I have a vote, that's what I would propose.

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #109 on: February 26, 2019, 08:22:59 AM »
I would disagree with this. Allow it for a fair catch kick, because the penalty yardage might encourage the kick.

IMHO, what needs to happen is that the basic spot for any of the "tack on" fouls can be a) the previous spot, b) a spot of first touching (if allowed as a succeeding spot) or c) the end of the related run immediately after the kick. If R loses possession of the ball, and then regains possession, after the kick, they can't enforce from the succeeding spot -- just as if it were any other scrimmage down.

As you were saying, if R scores on the return, since the foul happened prior to the COP, they must decline the foul.

Obviously that's not what the rule states, but in the world where I have a vote, that's what I would propose.

You can't use first touching spot because acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #110 on: February 26, 2019, 09:40:48 AM »
You can't use first touching spot because acceptance of a live ball foul cancels first touching.

This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

That being said, I might amend my wording slightly, and might have to think about exactly how to do it. I would want to preserve the rationale behind the rule you said. I wouldn't want K to commit first touching of a punt, R picks up the ball, runs downfield, fumbles and K recovers.... R can take the ball at the spot of first touching, but any during-the-kick fouls should be declined at that point.

However, this is creating loopholes and subclauses...

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #111 on: February 26, 2019, 03:41:50 PM »
This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

If you down the punt, that's not really first touching.  I mean, it is technically, but it's also the end of the kick.  So it's meaningless.  You tack on from the end of the play.  You're not enforcing from the first touching spot, you're enforcing from the end of the play.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2019, 05:28:14 PM »
This is actually no longer universally true because of the 10-4-2 exception. If K commits a foul during a punt play, then downs the punt, R has the option to enforce the foul from the spot of first touching (the succeeding spot).

That being said, I might amend my wording slightly, and might have to think about exactly how to do it. I would want to preserve the rationale behind the rule you said. I wouldn't want K to commit first touching of a punt, R picks up the ball, runs downfield, fumbles and K recovers.... R can take the ball at the spot of first touching, but any during-the-kick fouls should be declined at that point.

However, this is creating loopholes and subclauses...
I think you are trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be. bossman is right about the exception. It's not being enforced there because it's the spot of first of first touching. It's being enforced there because it's the end of the kick. Fouls by K that would have previously been required to be enforced from the previous spot now have the option of previous spot or where R next snaps the ball. That may be an over simplification but that's ultimately the intent of the rule. If K scored on that play previously they would have declined the foul. If they had a long return they also might have declined it, but now they can tack it on the end of the run. If R lost possession and K recovered they would have accepted the penalty at the previous spot because it would be to their advantage. That would still be true.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #113 on: February 27, 2019, 08:42:06 AM »
If you down the punt, that's not really first touching.  I mean, it is technically, but it's also the end of the kick.  So it's meaningless.  You tack on from the end of the play.  You're not enforcing from the first touching spot, you're enforcing from the end of the play.

In that scenario, R never has possession of the ball before it is dead. R is only awarded the ball because of the first touching. Yes, we're nitpicking rule word choice, but in general we can't say "Yes, the rule explicitly says X, but we all know it means Y"

Quote
Rule 6-2-5: The right of R to take the ball at spot of first touching by K is cancelled [...] if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down

If we enforce the penalty (a live ball foul), then the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching, where K gains possession and the down ends, is cancelled. K had possession of the ball at the end of down, which means that without any other influence, they would be the next to put the ball in play and the tack-on exception is void. The only remaining enforcement spot is the previous spot because of the loose ball play.

Or

We acknowledge the logic of the situation and how we've all been enforcing it last year, and state that 10-4-2 also makes an exception to the cancellation of first touching in 6-2-5 and we *can* enforce the penalty from the succeeding spot AND award the ball to R due to the first touching.

My main point is that "It is, but it isn't, but you know what I mean!" isn't exactly a strong argument to make to a coach in any situation.

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #114 on: February 27, 2019, 09:48:45 AM »
Quote
If we enforce the penalty (a live ball foul), then the right of R to take the ball at the spot of first touching, where K gains possession and the down ends, is cancelled. K had possession of the ball at the end of down, which means that without any other influence, they would be the next to put the ball in play and the tack-on exception is void. The only remaining enforcement spot is the previous spot because of the loose ball play.

If your logic is true, then we would never have PSK when K downs the ball.  Acceptance of an R foul would cancel first touching and make the previous spot the only enforcement option.

I think we're all more or less on the same page.  I just don't think you can say that you can enforce tack on fouls from first touching spot, because that would let officials think that we could enforce from actual bean bag touches, which we can't do.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »
When you are sitting around waiting for something to happen that hasn't yet, you may....

(1) Read the sports page (done it).
(2) Read the obits to see if you are still alive (done it).
(3) Watch a sports show (Ole' Dell can't do it).
(4) See how the responses to this topic compares to those of the past.... You may (not) find my following facts interesting...or not. :) :o ??? ::)

This is post #114 of this topic. The following topics have exceeded this:

2-22-2017     "the new rules are here"     132 posts
4-4-2016         "     "      "      "     "         148 posts

The first recorded topic was on 8-26-2010...Bugolathe was the author and LarryW60 was the last responder.
The topic had something to do about holding (I think) I don't think there were many responses.

 :puke: If I find anymore useless knowledge before my scheduled client arrives, I'll let you know!   :puke:



Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #116 on: February 28, 2019, 08:58:06 AM »
Are you trying to suggest there's something else to do in the off season than pour over every word in the rule book?

That's just crazy talk!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #117 on: March 08, 2019, 10:00:46 AM »
This afternoon is our annual gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards or whatever. I present the new rules to our fellow officials at our favorite facility (watering hole). I expect a multitude of gripes and groans on the passing of the 40" clock. I expect that  somehow we will make it work. Another round sometimes changes the gripes  >:( and groans  :( to grins  ;D and naughty  >:D thoughts about the waitress  >:D. Football isn't back on the field but is getting back in the mind  8] .

Do any of you guys have similar sessions  ??? ?

Offline prab

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #118 on: March 08, 2019, 10:11:24 AM »
We never gripe, moan or groan about rule changes.  We accept with blind faith that the rule makers are all knowing, all wise and all powerful.  We accept that they know what is best for the game even when we are not knowing enough or wise enough to see it immediately.  After the second or third round at the watering hole, we appreciate them even more!

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #119 on: March 09, 2019, 02:59:30 PM »
This afternoon is our annual gathering of eagles/ole' buzzards or whatever. I present the new rules to our fellow officials at our favorite facility (watering hole). I expect a multitude of gripes and groans on the passing of the 40" clock. I expect that  somehow we will make it work. Another round sometimes changes the gripes  >:( and groans  :( to grins  ;D and naughty  >:D thoughts about the waitress  >:D. Football isn't back on the field but is getting back in the mind  8] .

Do any of you guys have similar sessions  ??? ?

We don't, but I would also argue that we don't really have the new rules. We have a press release saying what rules have been altered and a rationale for the rule change, but not the actual wording of the new rule. This is even worse for the editorial changes -- for example the 10-4-2c EXCEPTION that we were discussing for many a page earlier. We *assumed* it was the removal of the word "down", but we don't actually know for certain.

Granted, *you* might have actual text of the new rules, but the rest of us do not.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #120 on: March 11, 2019, 10:00:33 AM »
We don't, but I would also argue that we don't really have the new rules. We have a press release saying what rules have been altered and a rationale for the rule change, but not the actual wording of the new rule. This is even worse for the editorial changes -- for example the 10-4-2c EXCEPTION that we were discussing for many a page earlier. We *assumed* it was the removal of the word "down", but we don't actually know for certain.

Granted, *you* might have actual text of the new rules, but the rest of us do not.
I have the successful proposals that were voted in which are pretty much covered in the press release . I also had the Illinois version of their 40" experimental rule. The press release + IL rule were discussed. We also discussed such items of interest as the World Series, Super Bowl, and such .  :)

Offline dieter

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #121 on: March 12, 2019, 12:47:41 PM »
I have the successful proposals that were voted in which are pretty much covered in the press release . I also had the Illinois version of their 40" experimental rule. The press release + IL rule were discussed. We also discussed such items of interest as the World Series, Super Bowl, and such .  :)

Wasn't Illinois unless our NFHS rep proposed some version of the rule. We have never experimented with anything in Illinois. We are mostly a by-the-book state.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #122 on: March 12, 2019, 01:00:09 PM »
Wasn't Illinois unless our NFHS rep proposed some version of the rule. We have never experimented with anything in Illinois. We are mostly a by-the-book state.

My bad, ISHSAA is Indiana  pi1eOn.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #123 on: March 12, 2019, 04:20:30 PM »
My bad, ISHSAA is Indiana  pi1eOn.
One too many Ss in there...IHSAA. Illinois is IHSA. I heard the CO mechanic is the one adopted which is good. Our commissioner had us signal both stop clock or incomplete pass and then the dead ball signal if applicable. This made us look like we were doing the macarena and was ridiculous. I'm really hoping he follows the fed mechanic. He's always adamant that we follow the fed mechanic on everything else (to a fault) so hopefully he doesn't change his message here. He doesn't feel the clock operators will know that all 3 signals can start the 40. He's never officiated though so a lot nuances of officiating are beyond him.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #124 on: March 13, 2019, 07:43:14 AM »
One too many Ss in there...IHSAA. Illinois is IHSA. I heard the CO mechanic is the one adopted which is good. Our commissioner had us signal both stop clock or incomplete pass and then the dead ball signal if applicable. This made us look like we were doing the macarena and was ridiculous. I'm really hoping he follows the fed mechanic. He's always adamant that we follow the fed mechanic on everything else (to a fault) so hopefully he doesn't change his message here. He doesn't feel the clock operators will know that all 3 signals can start the 40. He's never officiated though so a lot nuances of officiating are beyond him.
I chose Indiana's as it stated that it shouldn't be used in sub-varsity unless you had a 5-man crew. In Maine , all sub-varsity games are with 3-man crews with R & 2 wings. R often spots the ball. Spotting the ball and getting out of town before the snap is beyond their paygrade . In Maine, we currently have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. I'm told that, with our new rule, we will have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. This brought up a question that I didn't have an answer for but felt you might :

 Incomplete pass sails into puckerbrush.
40" clock starts by BJ with his spiffy retrofitted Readyref.
Ball boy has fallen in love with head cheerleader.
Wing digs ball out of puckerbrush.
Ball isn't spotted until after 20" has elapsed.
The big boys (NCAA) would reset to 25" play clock.
Without a play clock, without game clock running, and even with our spiffy retrofitted Readyref...HOW WOULD WE KNOW  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-MAN CREW)

HELP.......
 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 07:45:18 AM by Ralph Damren »