Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 10652 times)

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Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #125 on: March 13, 2019, 08:23:44 AM »
If you're handicapped with a readyref, then you just have to take an educated guess.

If you have a watch, it's no problem.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #126 on: March 13, 2019, 11:02:10 AM »
If you're handicapped with a readyref, then you just have to take an educated guess.

If you have a watch, it's no problem.

I'm surprised ready ref hasn't added a warning feature for the 20 or 25 second warning depending on rule code.  It already gives you a 10 second warning followed by the 5 second count down. 

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #127 on: March 13, 2019, 12:24:42 PM »
I'm surprised ready ref hasn't added a warning feature for the 20 or 25 second warning depending on rule code.  It already gives you a 10 second warning followed by the 5 second count down.
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit. Without any play clocks and the game clock off caused concern. I'm speaking at a coaches clinic this Friday and don't plan to bring this administrative reset up. Hopefully we will have this solved , and have a BJ demo , before the pre-season meetings that include both officials and coaches.

Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #128 on: March 13, 2019, 01:06:42 PM »
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit. Without any play clocks and the game clock off caused concern. I'm speaking at a coaches clinic this Friday and don't plan to bring this administrative reset up. Hopefully we will have this solved , and have a BJ demo , before the pre-season meetings that include both officials and coaches.

Like Bossman said, ReadyRef is suboptimal for games without a visible play clock. With a wrist watch play clock (Casio and whatnot where you can have almost any number of alerts during the 40s time) it has been a nonissue for me, and I'm willing to be that most of my games are in worse conditions than in Maine.

My Casio has been set up to do 15-10-15 second intervals, so if I get the first vibration before the ball is spotted, I can pump the play clock back to 25, and a bit after the second warning I can either raise my hand (if BJ) or yell "10 seconds" (if R). If it is a 25 second play clock, I'll do that at the first vibration.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #129 on: March 13, 2019, 01:22:08 PM »
I noticed on the ready ref site they off a lacrosse model with a :20 alarm. Does anybody know if that particular setting has a :05 warning buzz? If so it could be used to signal the CO to start the :25, giving teams an idea of the last :25 countdown on the :40. Assuming of course you are at a school with a :25 clock.


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Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #130 on: March 13, 2019, 01:34:22 PM »
I chose Indiana's as it stated that it shouldn't be used in sub-varsity unless you had a 5-man crew. In Maine , all sub-varsity games are with 3-man crews with R & 2 wings. R often spots the ball. Spotting the ball and getting out of town before the snap is beyond their paygrade . In Maine, we currently have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. I'm told that, with our new rule, we will have  ^no zero  ^no schools with the play clock. This brought up a question that I didn't have an answer for but felt you might :

 Incomplete pass sails into puckerbrush.
40" clock starts by BJ with his spiffy retrofitted Readyref.
Ball boy has fallen in love with head cheerleader.
Wing digs ball out of puckerbrush.
Ball isn't spotted until after 20" has elapsed.
The big boys (NCAA) would reset to 25" play clock.
Without a play clock, without game clock running, and even with our spiffy retrofitted Readyref...HOW WOULD WE KNOW  ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (5-MAN CREW)

HELP.......
 
First of all, I STRONGLY recommend disposing of the archaic mechanic of not allowing the officials to get a new ball from the sideline. That will avoid this issue entirely. In nearly 20 years of high school officiating I have never been stuck with using only one ball for an entire series if we requested a new ball.

But if you are going to do that, the B will know if the play clock is below 20. He'll blow his whistle and give a one-handed fist bump to indicate the play clock needs to be reset. The R will acknowledge and blow the RFP. The B will start the 25 second clock on his watch. However, if the offense is ready to go and will likely snap the ball in the next 10 seconds don't worry about it. If they take a little longer than the original 40 seconds be very liberal with your flag. You have a lot more flexibility in those situations without a play clock so you have a benefit. Those of us with visible play clocks have to be much more technical.

In 3 years of experiment 40 second clock I think we may have reset the play clock to 40 because it took long no more than 3 times. It's pretty rare to even be under 25 if you have good ball mechanics and OK ball boys.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #131 on: March 13, 2019, 09:01:29 PM »
Quote
First of all, I STRONGLY recommend disposing of the archaic mechanic of not allowing the officials to get a new ball from the sideline. That will avoid this issue entirely.

I don't think too many of us have that issue.  It is as Ralph says, things beyond our control- long pass lands beyond the track you have and  8 year old ballboy, a teen ballboy oggling the cheerleaders, two different ballboys fire balls out when you call for one.  Most ballboys here look at me like I've got 3 heads when I ask before the game if they have a towel. 

As I said previously, for those of you who work areas that have ballboys straight from the University of Alabama, bully for you.  For most of us, that luxury doesn't exist.  There's going to need to be some adjusting.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #132 on: March 13, 2019, 10:55:32 PM »
I don't think too many of us have that issue.  It is as Ralph says, things beyond our control- long pass lands beyond the track you have and  8 year old ballboy, a teen ballboy oggling the cheerleaders, two different ballboys fire balls out when you call for one.  Most ballboys here look at me like I've got 3 heads when I ask before the game if they have a towel. 

As I said previously, for those of you who work areas that have ballboys straight from the University of Alabama, bully for you.  For most of us, that luxury doesn't exist.  There's going to need to be some adjusting.


We have kids as our balls almost every game and many of them are far from professional. If you do a little coaching/reminding before each game and work with them during the game, they usually don't cause too many issues.

I go back to the argument I've heard for the need to not need the 40-second play clock. It was a solution looking for a problem. If getting the ball set within 15-18 seconds is a problem today then you aren't as consistent as you say you are. If you aren't that consistent then that's the problem. If some plays allow a team to burn 50-60 seconds because you can't get a ball and some are only 35 seconds because it was a short run up the middle, that's a bad consistency. If you watch a live stream of your crew with a 25-second clock you will find out even a very good crew probably varies 5-10 seconds on most plays. That doesn't include the outliers of a ball that disappears.

Either you were already very consistent and this will not be much of a transition at all or you weren't consistent and you need this rule more than you realize.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #133 on: March 14, 2019, 07:28:39 AM »
When you are sitting around waiting for something to happen that hasn't yet, you may....

(1) Read the sports page (done it).
(2) Read the obits to see if you are still alive (done it).
(3) Watch a sports show (Ole' Dell can't do it).
(4) See how the responses to this topic compares to those of the past.... You may (not) find my following facts interesting...or not. :) :o ??? ::)

This is post #114 of this topic. The following topics have exceeded this:

2-22-2017     "the new rules are here"     132 posts
4-4-2016         "     "      "      "     "         148 posts

The first recorded topic was on 8-26-2010...Bugolathe was the author and LarryW60 was the last responder.
The topic had something to do about holding (I think) I don't think there were many responses.

 :puke: If I find anymore useless knowledge before my scheduled client arrives, I'll let you know!   :puke:

This post brings this topic into a tie for 2nd place for the "HOTTEST TOPIC AWARD" with 17 more needed for  aWaRd . I figured our new rules would  :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: :sTiR: yEs: (5 man crew)

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #134 on: March 14, 2019, 08:57:30 AM »
It may, our BJs are scrambling now for the retrofit.

Maybe this will help (see attached).  I have not personally confirmed this works, but someone else said it does.


Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #135 on: March 14, 2019, 09:05:08 AM »
Thanks, Bossman, fiddling with new fangled gadgets is way beyond my paygrade  :) but I'll pass it on to those that are so inclined. As a white hat that has requested not to work any 4-man crews, I'll be relying that the back judge will be ready to roll.

t

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #136 on: March 14, 2019, 11:42:46 AM »
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.

                                                     

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #137 on: March 14, 2019, 12:43:40 PM »
There are a few 8-man teams in my neck of the woods. They all play on a regular field.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #138 on: March 14, 2019, 07:25:59 PM »
The only 8 man FB I ever worked was at our state school for the deaf and we played on regular field.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #139 on: March 15, 2019, 08:14:39 AM »
Tomorrow night I address the coaches at their Spring clinic. I'm sure a  portion of the meeting will be regarding the 40" clock and will be as ready as I can for that. An even hotter topic will be Maine's decision to have an 8-man football division. The 10 schools involved will be allowed to :

(1) Continue to use 300' X 160' field (all 10 have them;

(2) Modify to 240' X 120' field (none have 'em - no new schools, only schools dropping to 8);

(3) Keep @ 240' but reducing to 120' wide.

Any opinions from you 6-8-9 football guys regarding the size of fields and other aspects that may arise ????? Moving sidelines sounds much easier then moving end zones...ie...moving goal posts. I believe the schools involved all aspire to return to 11 some day.                                                     
The key thing you'll hear from them is about how they want the officials and chain crew to move quickly because they plan to snap the ball at 35 seconds. Trust me it won't happen. I've been through this twice now both in NCAA and our experimental state. They may be able to go a little bit faster sometimes but almost every snap will still be under 25 seconds and most will be under 20. And they will only go as fast as you allow them. You still control when it's ready for play to ensure all the officials are in place.

Offline KWH

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #140 on: March 15, 2019, 02:13:24 PM »

For clarification of what Magician just said...
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #141 on: March 16, 2019, 07:21:52 PM »
For clarification of what Magician just said...
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!
We still make sure one or the other is set, but it really doesn't take that long. I can't remember very many times that's why I delayed stepping away from the ball. Maybe a couple times per game at most. You wouldn't blow the RFP until one or the other was set previously so this is not much different. If they are delayed enough causing the play clock to run below 20 (or enough to put the offense at a disadvantage to be able to snap the ball) you can always reset it to 25 and try again. Most of the time one of them is there and ready to go within a couple seconds of the umpire placing the ball.

Offline KWH

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #142 on: March 17, 2019, 12:14:20 PM »
We still make sure one or the other is set, but it really doesn't take that long. I can't remember very many times that's why I delayed stepping away from the ball. Maybe a couple times per game at most. You wouldn't blow the RFP until one or the other was set previously so this is not much different. If they are delayed enough causing the play clock to run below 20 (or enough to put the offense at a disadvantage to be able to snap the ball) you can always reset it to 25 and try again. Most of the time one of them is there and ready to go within a couple seconds of the umpire placing the ball.

With all do respect Brian, we have some "issues" to resolve with some chain crews intentionally holding up the game, thus, "We" will NOT be waiting to "...make sure one of the other is set..."
Don't get me wrong, there will be some common sense inserted here (eg; 90 yard pass play, ect.) However, the days of the chain crew crawling to their position as (unofficially) instructed by the Home Head Coach officially ended with the insertion of the 40 second clock! In the extremely unlikely event they are not set when the snap is imminent, the H simply drops his bean bag, and the chain crew sets up on the bean bag.
As one example, for the last several years, under the 25 second clock, my crews have been informing the chain crew this is the mechanic.  While many may consider it a miracle, but the chains crews gain some superhuman speed, AND the most important part, in 4 years time, my H, has yet to drop his bean bag for them, NOT EVEN ONCE!
You gotta work with them, you gotta be professional, you gotta respect them, but they gotta put out a little effort now and then.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:06:50 PM by KWH »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2019, 07:44:20 AM »
The coaches had their Spring Clinic this past Friday and I presented the new rules. There are three sessions running concurrently and usually the rules session is the lowest attended. NOT TONIGHT--the room was packed. There was little care for the jersey restrictions in 4 years or IB & IK penalties reducing to 10 yards BUT there was much debate regarding the 40" clock. I tried to explain that this is a learning curve for us, too. I gave an analogy of a full-time substitute teacher that I once officiated with. When I asked how he could teach freshman math one day, senior history and next and sophomore science the third, he responded :

"I try to act like I know what I'm doing. I stay one chapter ahead of the students. They then think I know what I'm doing !"

I asked : "We will do our best to learn the system and get the kinks out, will you accept that  ??? ? "

They responded : " YES  yEs: ! "

I then asked : " Would have have your booster's club have continuous bake sale and raise several thousand $$$ for visible play clocks   :P ? "

They responded : " NO ! "

.......the meeting then ended...the bar then opened... tR:oLl

Offline bbeagle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2019, 08:08:40 AM »
We are no longer waiting for the chain crew or the down box to be set. (But use some common sense)
In the very rare event that the ball is snapped before the down box is set, (and there may be a few) the H will simply drop his/her bean bag and the box can set up on the bean bag.
It's not rocket surgery!

So, why are we stopping the clock when a first down is gained? Just for show?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2019, 08:18:40 AM »
So, why are we stopping the clock when a first down is gained? Just for show?

It is required under 3-5-7b (official's TO) . To remove it would require a rule change. 

Offline bbeagle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #146 on: March 18, 2019, 09:22:28 AM »
It is required under 3-5-7b (official's TO) . To remove it would require a rule change.

That's not what I meant by my comment.

Yes, we are required to stop the clock on a first down. The reason behind this is to allow time to set the chains.

If we are going to ignore the reason for 3-5-7b by just starting the clock when the ball is spotted, then you're basically ignoring the reason for rule 3-5-7b.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #147 on: March 18, 2019, 09:45:36 AM »
That's not what I meant by my comment.

Yes, we are required to stop the clock on a first down. The reason behind this is to allow time to set the chains.

If we are going to ignore the reason for 3-5-7b by just starting the clock when the ball is spotted, then you're basically ignoring the reason for rule 3-5-7b.

One benefit of the 40-second play clock is you'll be able to start the game clock again before the ball is ready for play. It's a silent wind of the game clock. The standard mechanic for us has been with 32-25 seconds remaining on the play clock unless time in the half if a factor. The NCAA philosophy is even quicker (35-37 seconds).

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #148 on: March 18, 2019, 10:00:34 AM »
The coaches had their Spring Clinic this past Friday and I presented the new rules. There are three sessions running concurrently and usually the rules session is the lowest attended. NOT TONIGHT--the room was packed. There was little care for the jersey restrictions in 4 years or IB & IK penalties reducing to 10 yards BUT there was much debate regarding the 40" clock. I tried to explain that this is a learning curve for us, too. I gave an analogy of a full-time substitute teacher that I once officiated with. When I asked how he could teach freshman math one day, senior history and next and sophomore science the third, he responded :

"I try to act like I know what I'm doing. I stay one chapter ahead of the students. They then think I know what I'm doing !"

I asked : "We will do our best to learn the system and get the kinks out, will you accept that  ??? ? "

They responded : " YES  yEs: ! "

I then asked : " Would have have your booster's club have continuous bake sale and raise several thousand $$$ for visible play clocks   :P ? "

They responded : " NO ! "

.......the meeting then ended...the bar then opened... tR:oLl

I'm not sure if our wings ever use the bean bag mechanic, but I've heard that as a possibility. There aren't that many plays in a HS season that go so far the box guy or chain crew can't get there in a reasonable amount of time for the umpire to leave his spot over the ball and make the ball ready for play. Again, if you had issues with this previously then you were likely very inconsistent in the amount of time given to teams from play to play and game to game. What the 40-second play clock provides is that consistency. But it's flexible enough you can deal with delays if they exist. If they become persistent problems you need to address it just like you would if you had issues with clock operators, ball personnel, security, etc. They aren't all perfect but if you work together they usually don't create too many delays. If you have that rare 90-yard play and everyone isn't down there and ready before the play clock hit about 20 then reset it to 25, let the officiating crew (including chains) get ready and wind it.

Offline JasonTX

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #149 on: March 18, 2019, 10:34:09 AM »
At some of our schools they will use two down boxes.  One on each side.  The one on the home side will stay put at the previous spot.  The visitors side box man will take off as soon as the ball is dead.  Once the dust settles the home side box moves to get lined up.