Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 10650 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Badger1

  • *
  • Posts: 40
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2019, 03:07:52 PM »
I am having trouble understanding this part of the new rule for timing, "Beginning next season, in addition to the above situations when the 25-second count is used, the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."  Could someone describe a situation that illustrates that part of the rule?

Also, say Team A runs 30 or more yards downfield and makes a first down with the ball dead inbounds.  Officials stop the clock (Official's time out) to move the chains and signal first down.  The RFP is then 25 seconds?

Offline kyfbref88

  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Read Rule 2
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2019, 03:21:07 PM »
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3059
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-105
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2019, 03:22:43 PM »
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

With the new wording for 2019 You could "legally" have only 5 men on the LOS and as few as 1 other player on team A.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline colorado_lines

  • *
  • Posts: 13
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2019, 03:34:46 PM »
I am having trouble understanding this part of the new rule for timing, "Beginning next season, in addition to the above situations when the 25-second count is used, the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."  Could someone describe a situation that illustrates that part of the rule?

Also, say Team A runs 30 or more yards downfield and makes a first down with the ball dead inbounds.  Officials stop the clock (Official's time out) to move the chains and signal first down.  The RFP is then 25 seconds?

Colorado was one of the experimental states for the past few years and if the NFHS rules for the 40 second clock are the same that we had, then the 40 second clock is still used following a first down, the referee will just give a silent wind to start the game clock while the back judge has had the play clock going.  On very long plays, there is a bit of an art to this and on some plays that were really long, the back judge would delay starting the play clock for a couple seconds to give people a tiny bit of time (3 or 4 seconds) to start moving downfield.  I can think of one time that it was ever an issue after a long first down and that was in a freshman game where the teams really didn't know what they were doing anyway.  The officials timeout thing in our rule set was for penalties.  After penalty enforcement the referee would blow the ready for play and that would signal the start of the 25-second clock.

In regards to the poster who asked about defensive matchups, if they are using the same rule set as we used there is no provision for defensive matchups.  I'm sure there are some teams out there on offense that will use it to their advantage but I can't recall a case in the past 3 years where a defensive coach in one of my games seemed bothered by the lack of a matchup rule and I can't recall a case where the defense struggled to get the people they wanted on the field for any reason than their own disorganization.

Once again, this is all assuming that NFHS intends to use the same rules that we experimented with.  Here they were a great success and varsity teams took about 3 games to get it 90% figured out; subvarsity sometimes took the whole first season.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3598
  • FAN REACTION: +281/-537
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2019, 03:58:16 PM »
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

You might well be Derek, from what I can gather (without seeing any actual rule revisions) is that the new definition states, "A legal acrimmagw formation now requires AT LEAST 5 offensive players on their LOS (instead of 7) with NO MORE than 4 "Backs", which suggests if a team wants to play with 9 people, they can do it.  I wouldn't expect a lot of teams will exercise that option, but it appears to be available to them should they wish to.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 04:00:10 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Online bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2394
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-25
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2019, 06:14:43 PM »
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?

You either meet the requirements for being a lineman or the requirements for being a back.  If youíre in ďno-manís landĒ, itís an illegal formation.  For 2019, there can be no more than 4 backs, or fewer than 5 linemen to constitute a legal formation.

Online bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2394
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-25
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2019, 06:19:43 PM »
Ralph:

Alabama allowed IR during the regular season last year, as well as the postseason.  Will that option still be available by state adoption?

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 101
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2019, 06:55:49 PM »
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing?
Previous rules required 7 men on the line with no more than 4 in the backfield.  If A came out with 10 players, 6 on the line, they were penalized.  So in addition to being short handed, they were penalized for illegal formation.  Now, if they come out with less than 11, as long as there are 5 linemen and no more that 4 in the backfield, no harm no foul.  Also, a lot of private schools can not field more than 9 players.  This makes the rules consistent for them also.

Offline 1Cor9:25

  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2019, 07:38:39 PM »
I imagine the 5 on the line remains with the numbering requirements. I'm curious what the impact will be on the 8-9 player rules. Or 6 for that matter.

I like the consistency of the 40 second play clock for varsity games, I'm concerned about the challenge in subvarsity games with smaller crews.

Offline Rich

  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-4
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2019, 10:35:38 PM »
You either meet the requirements for being a lineman or the requirements for being a back.  If youíre in ďno-manís landĒ, itís an illegal formation.  For 2019, there can be no more than 4 backs, or fewer than 5 linemen to constitute a legal formation.

Blade of grass philosophy has pretty much eliminated the "no man's land" where I work.

Online bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2394
  • FAN REACTION: +77/-25
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2019, 05:31:24 AM »
Blade of grass philosophy has pretty much eliminated the "no man's land" where I work.

In other words, you let Ďem cheat.  Iím seeing way too many OTs trying to emulate the college & pro players by starting in ďno-manís landĒ (or worse).

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 977
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-28
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2019, 06:03:26 AM »
In other words, you let Ďem cheat.  Iím seeing way too many OTs trying to emulate the college & pro players by starting in ďno-manís landĒ (or worse).

Thatís easy. If heís not clearly on the line heís off. If heís not on it doesnít matter if heís in no mans land or in the backfield, its gonna be a foul.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 2369
  • FAN REACTION: +71/-13
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2019, 07:12:54 AM »
Quote
Don't think I've ever seen a tackle by the nameplate, so that is what it is.

Happens quite a bit and the coaches would go apoplectic when you would explain that the tackler didn't grab the inside collar of the jersey or shoulder pad.  This just make the rule what coaches thought it was/should be.

As to tripping the runner, I can recall maybe two occurrences in my 25 years of officiating.  Not sure it was necessary but I think it gives us good cover for continuing to make hurdling illegal.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3049
  • FAN REACTION: +381/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2019, 07:27:48 AM »
Ralph:

Alabama allowed IR during the regular season last year, as well as the postseason.  Will that option still be available by state adoption?
Yes, under 1-7 (state's rights) IR can be used at any time and in any form with your state's adoption.

Offline FLAHL

  • *
  • Posts: 868
  • FAN REACTION: +51/-9
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2019, 08:14:56 AM »

This will eliminate most "3rd base coach" signals for unbalanced line, etc.

Exactly.  And itís about time!

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1483
  • FAN REACTION: +82/-23
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2019, 08:41:14 AM »
ok.  thank you. So you are either on the LOS or you are not and if you are not on the LOS you are in the backfield.  So the only way you could legally have 5 men on the line of scrimmage in 11 man football is if you have only 9 men on the field.....am I overthinking this?  What am I missing? 

To make it easy:

We already have a rule that says you need 5 linemen numbered 50-79 to have a legal formation.  I think that's what the press release meant by the 5 linemen part.

So basically, as long as you have 5 linemen 50-79, and you have 4 or fewer backs, you're good.

You rarely see less than 5 linemen 50-79, so really, all you are counting is backs in the backfield.

The only signal we should be using now as LOS officials is the "punch off" the widest player on the LOS.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1483
  • FAN REACTION: +82/-23
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2019, 08:43:50 AM »
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?

If you think about it, there was nothing preventing teams from doing that with a 25 sec clock, so no need for a match-up rule.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3049
  • FAN REACTION: +381/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2019, 09:34:04 AM »
My first post to this forum, although I have followed for years and appreciate all the posts and conversations.

One of the questions I have regarding the new 40 second rule is whether or not the defense will be permitted time to substitute players in response to the offense substituting players?  The wording of the press release states "...the ball will also be ready for play when, starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position."

I believe in other levels, when the offense substitutes, an official stands behind the center and doesn't allow the snap until the defense has a reasonable chance to perform its respective substitutions.  I wonder if we will have a similar mechanic in NFHS - if the offense substitutes players, does the umpire hold the ball until receiving a signal from the referee to place the ball on the ground and move into position, thus allowing the defense to substitute?

Welcome, KYFBREF, to our forum. I hope you'll find it both enjoyable and informative. Bossman answered your question well. While we've adopted the 40" clock basics, there are differences between our code and others. One of the underlying reasons for it's passage was that the pace of game should be controlled by the offense and not the officials. Once the offense is up to the line and ready, the defense is expected to be ready,too.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 12:08:11 PM by carol1995 »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3049
  • FAN REACTION: +381/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2019, 11:30:11 AM »
I always heard/saw it as "in the hole" instead of "hold". The person next on the ladder to reach the deck, would be sitting in a hole... somebody in the "hold" sounds like he's locked up in the brig.
My bad, NCwingman, it is "hole" not "hold". Not to be confused with a chant from my daze of youth : "Hey, batter; your bat's got a HOLE in it".

A noteworthy POE is "Proper Procedures for Weather Delays."
While still in draft form, the crux is :

If Thor ,the Greek God of Lightning, arrives close to halftime you can .....
(1) resume the end of 2nd quarter 30 minutes after he leaves AND proceed with halftime after he leaves, by mutual agreement of the coaches  the halftime can be shortened to 10 minutes;
(2) by mutual agreement of the coaches and referee, the 2nd qtr. could be ended and the weather delay could be considered halftime;
(3) CAN'T CONSIDER THE DELAY HALFTIME AND STILL FINISH 2ND QTR. AFTER.

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 11:47:22 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline markrischard

  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2019, 12:02:27 PM »
My bad, NCwingman, it is "hole" not "hold". Not to be confused with a chant from my daze of youth : "Hey, batter; your bat's got a HOLE in it".

A noteworthy POE is "Proper Procedures for Weather Delays."
While still in draft form, the crux is :

If Thor ,the Greek God of Lightning, arrives close to halftime you can .....
(1) resume the end of 2nd quarter 30 minutes after he leaves AND proceed with halftime after he leaves, by mutual agreement of the coaches  the halftime can be shortened to 10 minutes;
(2) by mutual agreement of the coaches and referee, the 2nd qtr. could be ended and the weather delay could be considered halftime;
(3) CAN'T CONSIDER THE DELAY HALFTIME AND STILL FINISH 2ND QTR. AFTER.

Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.

Offline Morningrise

  • *
  • Posts: 524
  • FAN REACTION: +20/-5
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #45 on: February 12, 2019, 12:03:28 PM »
Colorado was one of the experimental states for the past few years and if the NFHS rules for the 40 second clock are the same that we had, then the 40 second clock is still used following a first down, the referee will just give a silent wind to start the game clock while the back judge has had the play clock going.

The NCAA mechanic has no silent winds. The R blows his whistle whenever *either* clock needs to start, i.e. when winding the GC or when the PC is 25.* It'll be interesting to see if Fed recommends the same.

I also find the absence of a Fed "matchup" rule surprising, but that's a separate issue from a 40/25 play clock. I'm new to this Fed thing, so let me ask: Suppose it's 4th down and Team A sends out the punt unit. Team B responds by sending out the return team. Is there nothing in the rules that prevents Team A's punt team from sprinting to the line and snapping before Team B is ready?

* (or when the PC is 40 following a Team B injury/helmet - NCAA rule)

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 656
  • FAN REACTION: +39/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #46 on: February 12, 2019, 12:57:37 PM »
Thatís easy. If heís not clearly on the line heís off. If heís not on it doesnít matter if heís in no mans land or in the backfield, its gonna be a foul.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I generally take the opposite approach (depending on situation). If you're not clearly a back, then you're on the line.

This tends to avoid formation fouls at the expense of illegal man downfield... if it's a running play or screen pass, then it's not a foul and you give the kid a talking to to make sure he's on or off later when it might matter.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 977
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-28
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #47 on: February 12, 2019, 01:02:48 PM »
If you think about it, there was nothing preventing teams from doing that with a 25 sec clock, so no need for a match-up rule.

I believe as the new rule evolves, we will see a match-up requirement. It happened at the NCAA level because offenses were taking advantage of the :40 by snapping the ball as quickly as possible. They would have a sub ready, as soon as the ball was dead they would sub out, and the defense wasn't having time to match up. It won't be long before HS teams will do the same thing. Coaches will start crying, and we will have the match up rule..

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 977
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-28
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2019, 01:06:19 PM »
The NCAA mechanic has no silent winds. The R blows his whistle whenever *either* clock needs to start, i.e. when winding the GC or when the PC is 25.* It'll be interesting to see if Fed recommends the same.

I also find the absence of a Fed "matchup" rule surprising, but that's a separate issue from a 40/25 play clock. I'm new to this Fed thing, so let me ask: Suppose it's 4th down and Team A sends out the punt unit. Team B responds by sending out the return team. Is there nothing in the rules that prevents Team A's punt team from sprinting to the line and snapping before Team B is ready?

Not any more. Used to the WH could withhold the READY FOR PLAY until both teams were READY FOR PLAY..
Also, I think the match up rule in the NCAA was a direct result of the 40 second play clock. Because the ball was deemed ready for play just as soon as it was spotted, offenses were taking advantage of quick substitutions to mismatch the defense. Hence the "match-up rule."

* (or when the PC is 40 following a Team B injury/helmet - NCAA rule)
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 01:08:50 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 977
  • FAN REACTION: +27/-28
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2019, 01:11:24 PM »
I generally take the opposite approach (depending on situation). If you're not clearly a back, then you're on the line.

This tends to avoid formation fouls at the expense of illegal man downfield... if it's a running play or screen pass, then it's not a foul and you give the kid a talking to to make sure he's on or off later when it might matter.

I feel ya, but I kinda take 'Bama's approach. I think we let way too many OT's line up way too deep. I see some very bad formations on Hudl every week. I would rather throw a quick flag on A early because the guy "wasn't quite on the line" than to have to deal with him off the line all night.