Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 10645 times)

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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #75 on: February 14, 2019, 11:47:58 AM »
Ralph, is there a draft or some thoughts you can share on the POE for Expanded Neutral Zone with an RPO?
At the end of our voting session the floor is open for suggestions for POEs. An extensive list is then compiled with the most floor votes choosing the top three. I believe the ENZ POE dealt with continuing contact with B by ineligible A, but have not discussed it with any members of the Executive Committee, who write the final draft.

Offline refjeff

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #76 on: February 14, 2019, 11:54:07 AM »
"The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds ... (e) following an officialís time-out, with a few exceptions."

The Rules Book lists 12 types of official's time outs.   Could someone who knows for sure post which ones are the exceptions?

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #77 on: February 14, 2019, 12:05:29 PM »
"The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds ... (e) following an officialís time-out, with a few exceptions."

The Rules Book lists 12 types of official's time outs.   Could someone who knows for sure post which ones are the exceptions?

Here's the rule (2017 book).  The only one that will be 40 sec is a first down.

Easy way to think about it is if we interrupt the natural flow of the game (administrative stoppage), it goes to 25.  So if the team can't snap the ball because we as officials are doing something, then it's 25.

a. For measurement of a possible first down.
b. When a first down is declared.
c. Following a change of team possession.
d. When captains and coaches are notified of the time remaining.
e. For a player in need of equipment repair.
f. To dry or change the ball.
g. For unusual heat or humidity which may create a health risk to the players.
h. When a coach-referee conference concerning the misapplication of a rule
results in the referee altering his ruling. (3-5-1 1 )
i. After a foul, to administer the penalty.
j. For any unusual delay in getting the ball marked ready for play.
k. For a TV/radio time-out that is permitted and granted as authorized by state
association policy.
l For a one-minute intermission between the first and second and the third
and fourth periods and following a try, successful field goal or safety and
prior to the succeeding free kick.

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #78 on: February 14, 2019, 12:08:03 PM »
Is anyone aware of a 40/25 timing device similar to a Ready Ref?  If not, what kind of timing device have you used in areas where the 40/25 procedure has already been in use.  Does the BJ (in a 5 person crew) still visibly count down the last 5 seconds of either a 40 or 25?  In 4 man mechanics, who keeps the 40/25 clock? 

I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #79 on: February 14, 2019, 12:11:58 PM »
I have question about the ball boys... Does the home team provide all three?  As an LJ, I feel like I'm constantly training a new ball boy every game, including late in the season. I can't even imagine getting them to keep track of which team's ball to give me.

Typically home team has 2 ball boys and the visitors bring 1, and that's the perfect scenario.  Each person only holds footballs for one team.

On backwards fields (where the home team goes opposite press box), we usually just get one of the extra home team ball boys to go to the other sideline if the visitors don't have an extra ball boy they can wrangle up.

Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2019, 03:37:32 PM »
Casio makes a watch model which can be set to eg. 15-10-15 with vibrating alarms at each interval, so you can easily run 40/25 seconds.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2019, 04:00:17 PM »
Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..

When I was a new white hat in MA (which used 25 only, as an exception to NCAA) I always heard two things from veteran umpires and clock operators:

1. Take your time before the RFP. We don't want a dozen cheap delay-of-games. If it's crunch time, start being more strict and tell the coach "remember, you got 25 seconds."

and

2. Come on, kid, hurry up and wind the clock on first downs. We like white hats who keep the clock moving.

So now with the 40/25, I don't have to deal with that contradictory "advice" anymore. Because even though I'm not a new WH anymore, I know the other officials are still thinking it: "why won't he wind it earlier?" So now I can wind it without worrying that I just pulled a "quick pitch" on Team A to the tune of 10-12 seconds.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2019, 04:02:36 PM »
I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.

How about this - just get a second watch. One on each arm. Make one red and one green and pretend you're a wrestling ref! Okay but seriously, if I get any BJ gigs this year, I might actually do this.

Offline Morningrise

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #83 on: February 14, 2019, 04:06:13 PM »
Another benefit is what centxsports mentions in regards to winding the clock a lot less often. It's also a benefit to the ears as you are blowing your whistle a lot less too.

One time I cracked a rib while ice skating and had a game at WH the next week, and let me tell you, I became ACUTELY aware of how often the WH has to blow his whistle.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #84 on: February 14, 2019, 05:17:21 PM »
Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?
If they are OK with it, it still works. I assume your R made sure the ball boy was clear before blowing the RFP. Now the U needs to stay on the ball until the ball boy clears. Nothing really has to change.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #85 on: February 14, 2019, 05:20:54 PM »
Typically home team has 2 ball boys and the visitors bring 1, and that's the perfect scenario.  Each person only holds footballs for one team.

On backwards fields (where the home team goes opposite press box), we usually just get one of the extra home team ball boys to go to the other sideline if the visitors don't have an extra ball boy they can wrangle up.
For us each usually provides at least 2. We have had a few occasions where the visiting team asks if they can send one of their ball boys over to the home side to make sure they aren't doing anything unethical with their footballs. As long as they are OK with it so are we. We also let the home team coach know about it. We monitor it for any issues, but there hasn't been any in the games where it's happened. It's always best to have at least 2 on each side though. Each has one team's balls so they don't get confused on which ball to give you. Plus one can chase the long incomplete pass while the other gets to the new ball in. You can make it work with one but unless they are exceptional it can be a nightmare.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #86 on: February 14, 2019, 05:25:57 PM »
Thanks Magic. Iím beginning to get the picture now. The consistency of the :40 is that coaches know they have exactly :40 to execute a play after the previous down. I knew it had to be more than just trying to get the zebras to hustle.

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Correct. So much of the focus now and when we did our experiment and when we added it in NCAA was about the start of the RFP when that doesn't really change (it will still be usually 12-15 seconds after dead ball but sometimes 7-20). It's more about the time an offense has to get the ball snapped before a DOG. It's now consistent! You may have a few snaps per game a little quicker because the U steps away before the R would have previously blown his whistle. I had to white hat a middle school tournament this winter that didn't use our local experiment and it was a pain to remember when to start the 25. I had various things I was always doing during dead balls, and I wasn't always watching the U to know when it was 3-5 seconds after he placed the ball. I did forget entirely a couple times. It made me really appreciate the 40-second clock even more. I just didn't have to worry about it most of the time.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #87 on: February 15, 2019, 11:19:42 AM »
I heard you can get your readyref reprogrammed for $18 which includes shipping.

If you're a wristwatch guy, you have 2 choices:
1) Just use the stopwatch function to count up.
2) Keep it at 40 for the count-down timer.  You just have to know that 0:15 = 0:00 if you're in a 25 sec clock situation.

You'll never be able to fidget with the watch correctly if you're flipping back and forth between 40 and 25 with a count down timer.

In the past, I've been coming up with interesting solutions to use my countdown timer to handle the 25 second clock and the 45 second timeout. Usually, I have it set to 20 seconds so I start signalling for the last five... so 45 seconds on a timeout is 20+reset time+20+wait two/three seconds... obviously less crucial if the tweets come at 44 or 46 seconds. We're not trying to time a commercial break or anything that precise.

In other news, I just got one of them fancy "smart" watches and I wonder how hard it would be to program an app-thingy that can hopefully toggle easier... (aka famous last words)

Offline Regno71

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #88 on: February 15, 2019, 12:33:23 PM »
In other news, I just got one of them fancy "smart" watches and I wonder how hard it would be to program an app-thingy that can hopefully toggle easier... (aka famous last words)

I reprogrammed my RefSmart last night to hit the 25/40. But I was also looking at smart watches and found this - it looks interesting.  Disclaimer, I have not downloaded it or used it, so if anyone is using it I would be interested in a review. It is for Android:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.refereetimer.TimerMyActivity&hl=en_US&fbclid=IwAR0O3MrC1Dn1JwXqugsgqyWoWvQxltLvrmbpyRxDv_92-pDJJkFQ2Nyk-o0

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2019, 03:38:16 PM »
My watch isn't *that* smart... and if it was, I'm not sure I'd want to take it out on a football field. The one I have is a Garmin GPS meant for running, but you can program apps and widgets. Workout timers and the like are pretty common, but nothing that meets exact needs seems to be available.

Also, that one costs $5. That's like $5 more than I ever feel like spending on an app... I'll just program my own, it'll be cheaper and easier, right?

If I do succeed, I'll post a link in case anybody else wants to use it, but no promises.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2019, 11:56:24 AM »
I'm hearing creative suggestions from some of my local zebras ,non of which I would  really support, but I'll throw 'em out for your opinions  :sTiR:....,

(1) If the clock is running AND the BJ is facing it, mentally record the 40" off the clock. If not running, hit the TO switch on ReadyRef and give 'em 45.

(2) Hit 25" on ReadyRef and could last 15" down after buzzer goes off.

(3) Do it the ole' fashioned way from the pre-Ready Ref era and do it with a quick glance at your watch.

We mammals are the most creative critters on the planet and am sure we'll find a way....possibly even buying a new ReadyRef  pi1eOn.

Offline prab

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2019, 12:08:24 PM »
2019 EDITORIAL CHANGES
2-6-2d, 5-2-2, 5-2-4, 6-5-4, 7-2-5a, 8-5-2 EXCEPTION, 9-3-8 PENALTY, 10-4-2c EXCEPTION, 10-5-1j,

The change itself is not detailed.  However, could it be that the word "down" has been removed? 

Recall that when the 2018 changes were listed on the NFHS web site the new rule called for most Fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick to fall under the "Special Enforcement Rules".   However, when the rule book was published it was changed to during a "kick down".  We generally agreed that "kick" and "kick down" had different definitions.  If the word "down" has been removed, the rule will read as most of us thought that it should have been.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2019, 07:37:42 AM »
2019 EDITORIAL CHANGES
2-6-2d, 5-2-2, 5-2-4, 6-5-4, 7-2-5a, 8-5-2 EXCEPTION, 9-3-8 PENALTY, 10-4-2c EXCEPTION, 10-5-1j,

The change itself is not detailed.  However, could it be that the word "down" has been removed? 

Recall that when the 2018 changes were listed on the NFHS web site the new rule called for most Fouls by K during a free or scrimmage kick to fall under the "Special Enforcement Rules".   However, when the rule book was published it was changed to during a "kick down".  We generally agreed that "kick" and "kick down" had different definitions.  If the word "down" has been removed, the rule will read as most of us thought that it should have been.
Where I'm not on the Editorial Committee, editorial changes are beyond my pay grade. We'll all have to wait for our new rule books to arrive to know for sure.

PS : WITH THIS POST (#92) WE HAVE SURPASSED "SUNGLASSES" AS THE MOST POSTED TOPIC IN THE MODERN ERA 8] 8] 8] 8] 8] (5-MAN CREW)

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2019, 10:19:32 AM »
Something that stuck me as I'm away from my rule book at the moment (somebody should double check if the verbiage is correct).

Assuming that the editorial change is removing "down" from "kick down", the rule would then allow for fouls "during a free or scrimmage kick". It would stand to reason that this removes fouls after the end of the kick from tacking on.

However, does "during the kick" include the entirety of the loose ball play, which encompass all action prior to the loose ball (10-3-1)? This is moot in the case of a free kick since the kick starts the down, but does the illegal formation prior to a scrimmage kick still have the tack on option? I would argue that it *should*, but also thinking that there's some other random arbitrary word in a different rule that prevents that.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2019, 02:56:31 PM »
Something that stuck me as I'm away from my rule book at the moment (somebody should double check if the verbiage is correct).

Assuming that the editorial change is removing "down" from "kick down", the rule would then allow for fouls "during a free or scrimmage kick". It would stand to reason that this removes fouls after the end of the kick from tacking on.

However, does "during the kick" include the entirety of the loose ball play, which encompass all action prior to the loose ball (10-3-1)? This is moot in the case of a free kick since the kick starts the down, but does the illegal formation prior to a scrimmage kick still have the tack on option? I would argue that it *should*, but also thinking that there's some other random arbitrary word in a different rule that prevents that.
That's exactly what it should do. The idea is to remove the option of only enforcing the penalty on a scrimmage kick at the previous spot. To over simplify this with the intent of this type of rule, what the change last year was doing was giving the receiving team the option to tack on the foul by the kicking team if previously the only option was to enforce from the previous spot assuming they were going to put the ball in play next with a regular scrimmage down. Of course with HS rules they also have the option to tack on to try or free kick if they return the kick for a TD. I think that's a silly provision but whatever. It's not likely to happen anyway so I don't worry about it.

Offline ncwingman

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #95 on: February 18, 2019, 07:30:34 PM »
Of course with HS rules they also have the option to tack on to try or free kick if they return the kick for a TD. I think that's a silly provision but whatever. It's not likely to happen anyway so I don't worry about it.

This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #96 on: February 18, 2019, 09:48:16 PM »
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.

Right.  "Succeeding spot" gets a little murky in this play:

Team A is in an illegal formation at the snap.  Team B returns the punt to the A25.  Time expires for the 2nd qtr during the down.

So do they get to tack on 5 from the 25 and have B 1/10 @ A20 with an untimed down?

Or, does "succeeding spot" imply "live treated as dead" and the 5 yards goes on the 2nd half kickoff?

I think the former is how we should be enforcing it (because if, say, B roughs the kicker, we'd offset these fouls.  Can't do that if it's a true "succeeding spot" foul).

However, "succeeding spot" wording causes some confusion.

Similar to "kick down" vs "kick play".

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #97 on: February 18, 2019, 10:17:51 PM »
This is a little of what I was talking about -- this is not 100% correct. 10-4-2 Exception allows for enforcement of the foul at the succeeding spot, which would by the try if R returns the kick for the TD. R does NOT have the option to enforce on the ensuing kickoff because 8-2-2 and 8-2-3 explicitly omit the option for fouls that occur prior to a change of possession (i.e., a scrimmage kick).

There's this one little word/rule combo that makes an oddity out of enforcement.
I agree but in that case they should either have the option to decline the penalty or enforce previous spot. They will always choose to decline because they'll want the score. Giving them the option to enforce on the try is silly.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #98 on: February 18, 2019, 10:20:00 PM »
Right.  "Succeeding spot" gets a little murky in this play:

Team A is in an illegal formation at the snap.  Team B returns the punt to the A25.  Time expires for the 2nd qtr during the down.

So do they get to tack on 5 from the 25 and have B 1/10 @ A20 with an untimed down?

Or, does "succeeding spot" imply "live treated as dead" and the 5 yards goes on the 2nd half kickoff?

I think the former is how we should be enforcing it (because if, say, B roughs the kicker, we'd offset these fouls.  Can't do that if it's a true "succeeding spot" foul).

However, "succeeding spot" wording causes some confusion.

Similar to "kick down" vs "kick play".
Common sense says you extend the period for one play if they accept which is what the rules say. They may choose to decline the penalty to allow the half to end. You extend the period if an accepted penalty occurs during the down. R has the option of 5 yards previous spot or 5 yards succeeding spot since they will be the ones to next put the ball in play.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #99 on: February 19, 2019, 01:40:04 PM »
I agree but in that case they should either have the option to decline the penalty or enforce previous spot. They will always choose to decline because they'll want the score. Giving them the option to enforce on the try is silly.

Agreed. The entire "take the score and the foul" addition is silly in my book, but unfortunately it's reality. In this particular instance, I can't think of any reason why R can't keep the score and have the penalty enforced on the try.