Author Topic: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......  (Read 10625 times)

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Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2019, 01:47:56 PM »
Also, I think the match up rule in the NCAA was a direct result of the 40 second play clock. Because the ball was deemed ready for play just as soon as it was spotted, offenses were taking advantage of quick substitutions to mismatch the defense. Hence the "match-up rule

Sorry but no. The 40/25 play clock was instituted in 2008 and the match-up rule was a 2000 change.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2019, 01:52:15 PM »
Sorry but no. The 40/25 play clock was instituted in 2008 and the match-up rule was a 2000 change.
Really? Well I'm confused. I admit I'm not a student of NCAA rules. But I was under the assumption that by "match-up" we were talking about the umpire standing over the ball with the WH holding his hands outstretched, holding up the snap until the defense had the opportunity to substitute. That rule was just instituted in the last year or so, right? Because the offense was subbing and then snapping before the defense could react?

Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2019, 02:06:25 PM »
Really? Well I'm confused. I admit I'm not a student of NCAA rules. But I was under the assumption that by "match-up" we were talking about the umpire standing over the ball with the WH holding his hands outstretched, holding up the snap until the defense had the opportunity to substitute. That rule was just instituted in the last year or so, right? Because the offense was subbing and then snapping before the defense could react?

What has changed since 2000 is that nowadays team A is not allowed to snap the ball. Back in 2000, the action by team A was immediately a foul and got penalized 5/15 yards. This got changed in 2004 and the rule has been the same since then.

2000 rule language:

"While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage and snapping the ball with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. The following procedure will be applied [5/15 yard penalties]"

2004 change:

"When Team A sends in its substitutes, the officials will not allow the ball to be snapped until Team B has been given an opportunity to substitute. While in the process of substitution or simulated substitution, Team A is prohibited from rushing quickly to the line of scrimmage with the obvious attempt of creating a defensive disadvantage. If the ball is ready for play, the game officials will not permit the ball to be snapped until Team B has placed substitutes in position and replaced players have left the field of play. Team B must react promptly with its substitutes."

Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2019, 02:15:00 PM »
What has changed since 2000 is that nowadays team A is not allowed to snap the ball. Back in 2000, the action by team A was immediately a foul and got penalized 5/15 yards. This got changed in 2004 and the rule has been the same since then.

If I remember correctly, the 2000 change was prompted by teams waiting on a 4th down for the play clock to start and then mass substituting either the FG unit or back to the regular offense, and NCAA wanted to get rid of it as being unfair.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2019, 02:18:00 PM »
Gotcha, learn something new every day. So in regard to the :40, what brought about the "Iron cross" signal from the WH and the Umpire (now the C) delaying the snap? Was that just a mechanics inserted to ensure this rule was enforced?

Offline Kalle

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2019, 02:48:29 PM »
Gotcha, learn something new every day. So in regard to the :40, what brought about the "Iron cross" signal from the WH and the Umpire (now the C) delaying the snap? Was that just a mechanics inserted to ensure this rule was enforced?

Yes. I think this predates the use of O2O radios in NCAA, so a clear signal from the wings to R and U was needed.

Offline Regno71

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2019, 05:07:13 PM »
Ralph, is there a draft or some thoughts you can share on the POE for Expanded Neutral Zone with an RPO?

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2019, 05:18:26 PM »
Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.

And, exactly how I handled a “lights out” delay several years ago.

Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2019, 10:01:44 AM »
Permanently implementing the 40-second play clock is a good addition. We've been experimenting with it for 3 years and it's been a huge success. Nobody (coaches or officials) wanted to go back to the 25-second play clock.

As others have stated the sub matchup rule and 40/25 have nothing to do with each other. The ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation. The U usually has the ball down at 28-32 and steps away (now the RFP) 2-3 seconds later. That means ready for play is often 10-15 seconds after the previous play which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation. Teams that want to go faster than that generally aren't substituting. Even if they sub-right away the defense is only given 3 seconds to match up so their sub is usually done before the ball is ready for play anyway. I've always thought the sub matching should exist regardless of play clock used so maybe it will be added to NFHS eventually.

The formation rule change makes so much sense. Most wings I know were already just counting backs after verifying we had 11. That was much easier than trying to count linemen who are hard to see from the wing because they block each other out. If R/U only had 10 then you had to make sure there were no more than 3 in the backfield. It was a silly foul for the offense already playing at a disadvantage.

I'm curious to see the RPO/ENZ POE update. There has been confusion over the wording since 2 different provisions of the rule mention ineligible linemen can be 2 yards downfield and another states they can be there if they engage with a defender at the LOS. Does one overrule the other. I'm assuming this POE clarifies that and let us know which one should be enforced. If it requires a block being initiated at the LOS it will all but end RPO.

Overall good set of changes this year by the committee. No head scratchers.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2019, 11:03:02 AM »
It looks like the Editorial Changes clean up some of the spillage in aisle 5 from last year regarding the penalty option for fouls by the kicking team.

Also, the Editorial changes reference 2-6-2d.  There isn't such a rule.  The correct reference is 2-6-2b.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:24:22 AM by Patrick E. »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2019, 01:36:49 PM »
Permanently implementing the 40-second play clock is a good addition. We've been experimenting with it for 3 years and it's been a huge success. Nobody (coaches or officials) wanted to go back to the 25-second play clock.

As others have stated the sub matchup rule and 40/25 have nothing to do with each other. The ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation. The U usually has the ball down at 28-32 and steps away (now the RFP) 2-3 seconds later. That means ready for play is often 10-15 seconds after the previous play which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation.

Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..

Offline centexsports

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2019, 01:53:43 PM »
As a Texas Referee who was skeptical when introduced, the 40/25 change has been a good change.   It hasn't shortened any of my games but for the crews that used to run long, it has helped.   You haven't gotten to the NCAA stage yet but when you do it should be easier.  After a touchdown no RFP just line up.   After a kickoff no RFP, just line up (I also announce to the teams that the ball is in play if needed).   Unless there is an administrative stoppage, no RFP.   This change has added 5 years to my right shoulder. All schools here have the 40/25 clock but they have broken several times.   My BJ has the belt clip timer and stays on top of it when needed.   Good crews will not have any problems with this.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #62 on: February 13, 2019, 02:17:29 PM »
So the major benefit of the :40 is to make it easier on the WH? Why do the coaches like it so much then? Because I'm sure that thought never crossed their minds..  :sTiR:

Offline Regno71

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #63 on: February 13, 2019, 02:57:13 PM »
I'm guessing, but this comes from my experience: In our state the varsity crews are assigned from a pool every game, I rarely work with the same individual over the course of a season. Some are great - efficient, hustling, consistent. Some... not so much. Part of my pregame is spent stressing the dead ball intervals and 12-15 seconds to RFP, but with some guys I STILL find that part of my game is spent talking to crew members and telling them to hustle, focus, get the ball set so I can blow the RFP, and a stern talking at halftime. Let's face it, some officials can be chatty cathy's and slow things down.  hEaDbAnG

I doubt the participants on this forum (I mean, really, we are in the offseason talking here, I'd love to work with y'all) and those who have strong crews that stay together through the season are going to be affected by this. It shouldn't make much of a difference, just new mechanics. But if this change helps speed up the slower crews and keeps them focused, that's a great step up. I imagine most coaches get irritated watching a crew take their time between plays, resulting in delayed RFPs.

Offline toma

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #64 on: February 13, 2019, 03:16:13 PM »
When meeting with the HC's before the start of a game I tell them we try to be rhythm, the quicker you get your plays into the QB the more plays you will run during the course of the game. Giving HC more time to think up a play? doesn't make sense.
 

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #65 on: February 13, 2019, 04:36:35 PM »
I'm guessing, but this comes from my experience: In our state the varsity crews are assigned from a pool every game, I rarely work with the same individual over the course of a season. Some are great - efficient, hustling, consistent. Some... not so much. Part of my pregame is spent stressing the dead ball intervals and 12-15 seconds to RFP, but with some guys I STILL find that part of my game is spent talking to crew members and telling them to hustle, focus, get the ball set so I can blow the RFP, and a stern talking at halftime. Let's face it, some officials can be chatty cathy's and slow things down.  hEaDbAnG

I doubt the participants on this forum (I mean, really, we are in the offseason talking here, I'd love to work with y'all) and those who have strong crews that stay together through the season are going to be affected by this. It shouldn't make much of a difference, just new mechanics. But if this change helps speed up the slower crews and keeps them focused, that's a great step up. I imagine most coaches get irritated watching a crew take their time between plays, resulting in delayed RFPs.

I get all that and agree with u 100 percent that we need to hustle and spot the ball as quickly as possible. I’m missing the connection regarding how a 40 second clock achieves that goal. The way I see it, a slow, lazy official can be just as slow and lazy with 40 seconds on the play clock as he can with 25.


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Offline Magician

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #66 on: February 13, 2019, 07:58:36 PM »
Can I ask a question? I'm having trouble with the :40, and I admit a lot of that is lack of understanding. You say that it was a big success in the experiment, and I admit you can't argue with experience. My question is what is it about the :40 that makes it such a big success? Especially in light of the comments you made after that referring to "the ball is generally ready for play in about the same time in either play clock situation." If the :40 didn't change the time frame, exactly what did it change? Also, the "which is the pace most crews try to have in a 25-second play clock situation" is confusing as well. If that's true, and I think it is, it seems like the :40 doesn't change that either. It seems to me that either way, the pace of play is dictated by the ability of the crew to get the ball spotted regularly, and whether there are extra seconds on a play clock ticking doesn't factor in. Somebody help me please..
Great question. The normal pace from dead to RFP is 12-15 seconds no matter which play clock you are using. But sometimes it may be quicker or longer. The benefit of the 40 is it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play in 7 seconds or 20 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from dead to DOG. With a 25-second clock that could vary from 32 to 45 seconds. Many people incorrectly think that a 40-second play clock causes the officials to hurry up and teams will hurry up and be able to snap the ball a lot faster and that's not true. There will be times when the ball will be set and the U steps away a little quicker but teams are rarely ready to go that fast. Teams appreciate the consistent pace from dead to DOG especially when the other team is trying to burn time near the end of a half. They won't feel like the crew is delaying the start of the play clock and allowing them to burn more time.

Another benefit is what centxsports mentions in regards to winding the clock a lot less often. It's also a benefit to the ears as you are blowing your whistle a lot less too. It's one less thing to worry about for the R between plays - starting the play clock.

A final benefit is you have the ability to start the game clock a little quicker after first downs in bounds. Because it's a silent wind you can start it as the umpire is getting ready to place the ball rather than waiting until he steps away. Don't push it too much though, especially near the end of a half.

We also took advantage of a recommended mechanic of having team balls for both teams on both sides. That way we have quicker access to footballs regardless of which side the pass is thrown. It makes ball mechanics a little more efficient. That's not a required mechanic, but we did it in almost every game the past 3 years.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #67 on: February 14, 2019, 05:42:43 AM »
Thanks Magic. I’m beginning to get the picture now. The consistency of the :40 is that coaches know they have exactly :40 to execute a play after the previous down. I knew it had to be more than just trying to get the zebras to hustle.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #68 on: February 14, 2019, 06:07:47 AM »
Quote from: Magician
We also took advantage of a recommended mechanic of having team balls for both teams on both sides. That way we have quicker access to footballs regardless of which side the pass is thrown. It makes ball mechanics a little more efficient. That's not a required mechanic, but we did it in almost every game the past 3 years.

Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?

Offline bossman72

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #69 on: February 14, 2019, 08:16:47 AM »
Since our state is adamant about allowing ball boys on the field, what adjustments do you recommend?

We've done ball rotation like Magician described in Western PA for many years.  At least 10.

You start the game with 2 balls from each team on the press box side (4 total), and 1 from each team on the sticks side (2 total).

All changes of possession come from the LJ / press box side.

So, the offensive team will have one ball in play and one ball on each sideline.

-Pass goes incomplete to the LJ side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the HL side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the middle - we usually use the far hash as the line of demarcation.  Anything past the far hash (opposite press box) rotates in from the HL side.  All others are from LJ side.
-Run ends near the sideline, you can spot the current ball at your feet and rotate a ball in from the ball boy if you wish.
-Ball boys shag the incomplete passes OOB.  2 ball boys are required on the LJ side and 1 on the HL side.

It's a great system.

Offline bawags06

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #70 on: February 14, 2019, 09:24:48 AM »
We've done ball rotation like Magician described in Western PA for many years.  At least 10.

You start the game with 2 balls from each team on the press box side (4 total), and 1 from each team on the sticks side (2 total).

All changes of possession come from the LJ / press box side.

So, the offensive team will have one ball in play and one ball on each sideline.

-Pass goes incomplete to the LJ side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the HL side, rotate a ball in from that side.
-Pass goes incomplete to the middle - we usually use the far hash as the line of demarcation.  Anything past the far hash (opposite press box) rotates in from the HL side.  All others are from LJ side.
-Run ends near the sideline, you can spot the current ball at your feet and rotate a ball in from the ball boy if you wish.
-Ball boys shag the incomplete passes OOB.  2 ball boys are required on the LJ side and 1 on the HL side.

It's a great system.

Bossman, I always find it interesting how different your mechanics are than what we use. (For the record, I generally like yours better.) It's funny because I'm in Western PA too, but in the Erie County region. At the varsity level, we use 5-man mechanics until we go to 7 for playoffs.

I have question about the ball boys... Does the home team provide all three?  As an LJ, I feel like I'm constantly training a new ball boy every game, including late in the season. I can't even imagine getting them to keep track of which team's ball to give me.

As a side note, with a 5-man crew, we don't place a whole lot of emphasis of rotating balls in unless the teams are throwing a lot. We don't have many strong passing teams, so we have a lot of runs between the hashes.

Offline refjeff

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #71 on: February 14, 2019, 11:31:18 AM »
OK, "The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds (a) prior to a try following a score."

Why?  Why not continue to use the 40 second clock for the PAT?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #72 on: February 14, 2019, 11:33:33 AM »
Interesting. (3) is exactly how we handled a weather delay in a JV game this past season.
IMHO, this becomes a safety issue as prescribed "rest time"  should not be heeded. When the "near the end" of the first half, some referees could consider that 2:00. others could assume 1:00 and the like. I had a big debate with the home's AD a couple of years ago and authored a POE for the manual last year.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2019, 11:37:53 AM »
OK, "The play clock will continue to start at 25 seconds (a) prior to a try following a score."

Why?  Why not continue to use the 40 second clock for the PAT?
While the NCAA expanded their 40" rule to this, it was not in the experimental rules by the states involved. We adopted their rule as those states had wrote it.

Offline prab

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Re: AND THE NEW RULES ARE......
« Reply #74 on: February 14, 2019, 11:38:04 AM »
Is anyone aware of a 40/25 timing device similar to a Ready Ref?  If not, what kind of timing device have you used in areas where the 40/25 procedure has already been in use.  Does the BJ (in a 5 person crew) still visibly count down the last 5 seconds of either a 40 or 25?  In 4 man mechanics, who keeps the 40/25 clock?