Author Topic: Keep our minds working...  (Read 6959 times)

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Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2019, 02:24:25 PM »
There were a few questions on the topic on the CFO test last year.

Offline bmtjim

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2019, 08:10:29 PM »
A 4-G B-5. B leads 24-20 with 0:03 remaining in quarter 4. QB A7 drops back and seeing no one open scrambles right.  At the B6 he sees A78 in the EZ and throws a pass which A78 catches for a TD.  There are no eligible players in the area of the pass.  Time expires on the play.  Ruling including the foul?

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2019, 09:12:05 PM »
This is not zap-10, as the forward pass was legally executed (QB throws the ball away outside the tackle box and beyond the line of scrimmage), rather the penalty is ITP, because #78 touched the ball in the end zone (Rule 7-3-11). There is also a foul for IDP, because #78 was more than 3 yards beyond the line of scrimmage (Rule 7-3-10). The defense will accept either penalty, with the next play being an untimed down A 4/G @ B-10, Game clock at 0 seconds, play clock at 25 due to the penalty enforcement.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #128 on: June 20, 2019, 01:31:55 AM »
This is still an illegal forward pass as there was no eligible team A receiver in the area and A7 obviously conserved time with the pass. Loss of down, game over. If there was time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play we would not have ZAP-10 as the foul did not cause the clock to stop, the apparent TD did.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #129 on: June 20, 2019, 10:06:34 AM »
This is still an illegal forward pass as there was no eligible team A receiver in the area and A7 obviously conserved time with the pass. Loss of down, game over. If there was time remaining on the game clock at the end of the play we would not have ZAP-10 as the foul did not cause the clock to stop, the apparent TD did.

This is why I would like to see the rule changed to read, "...thrown incomplete into an area where there is no originally eligible Team A receiver."  This would clear up several things:
1) it would conclusively require the pass to be incomplete to be intentional grounding; thus a catch by an ineligible player would NOT be an intentional grounding foul, but would be illegal touching, and an interception would not create an intentional grounding foul.
2) it would not be an intentional grounding foul if thrown to a player that the passer may have believed to be eligible, i.e., the player was eligible at the snap, but became ineligible during the down; but, it would be illegal touching.

If the rule read as suggested above, intentional ground can only occur with an incomplete pass, which would cause the clock to stop.  In many cases, that is the desired effect by the offending team, giving them an unfair advantage.  Thus, the 10-second subtraction is appropriate, during the last minute of each half.

However, a catch by an ineligible player does the offending team no good with regard to the clock; the clock continues to run until the ball becomes dead otherwise.  An interception certainly does the offending team no good with regard to anything.  So, in both cases, there is no reason to impose a 10-second subtraction from the game clock.

I continue to dream.

Robert

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #130 on: June 20, 2019, 10:20:40 AM »
By the way, what is a receiver?  That word means nothing, unless it has a definition. That word, by itself, does not mean eligible or ineligible.

If that term is going to be used in the actual rule language, it needs to be defined.  But, in actuality, it does not need to be used, at all.  Just simply "player" works for the rules.  Much like a passer, a receiver wouldn't be a receiver until he actually receives the ball from a pass or kick.  Why make it complicated?  Just use the word "player." The word "quarterback" does not appear in the rule language.  No different.  Lose the word "receiver" in the rule language.  OK, if you want to use it in the ARs. But, get it out of the rule language. I don't care if he was the player intended to receive the pass or not.  He is just another player.

Robert

 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #131 on: June 20, 2019, 11:07:43 AM »
By the way, what is a receiver?  That word means nothing, unless it has a definition. That word, by itself, does not mean eligible or ineligible.

If that term is going to be used in the actual rule language, it needs to be defined.  But, in actuality, it does not need to be used, at all.  Just simply "player" works for the rules.  Much like a passer, a receiver wouldn't be a receiver until he actually receives the ball from a pass or kick.  Why make it complicated?  Just use the word "player." The word "quarterback" does not appear in the rule language.  No different.  Lose the word "receiver" in the rule language.  OK, if you want to use it in the ARs. But, get it out of the rule language. I don't care if he was the player intended to receive the pass or not.  He is just another player.

Robert

Don't necessarily disagree but many years ago when I was taking the officiating classes we were told that words used in the rules were 1st to be interpreted as defined in the definitions and 2nd, if not defined in the definitions, were to be interpreted based on generally accepted (dictionary) definitions.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline bossman72

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #132 on: June 20, 2019, 09:12:31 PM »
2) it would not be an intentional grounding foul if thrown to a player that the passer may have believed to be eligible, i.e., the player was eligible at the snap, but became ineligible during the down; but, it would be illegal touching.

I think a good example of this would be TE #88 is unintentionally covered up at the snap.  QB under duress throws  a pass to  a wide open A88 with nobody around him.

Technically, this is ING, but I don't think we should penalize him for ING here because he believed he was throwing to an eligible receiver.  Just penalize the ITP/IDP.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #133 on: June 21, 2019, 01:12:01 AM »
I think a good example of this would be TE #88 is unintentionally covered up at the snap.  QB under duress throws  a pass to  a wide open A88 with nobody around him.

Technically, this is ING, but I don't think we should penalize him for ING here because he believed he was throwing to an eligible receiver.  Just penalize the ITP/IDP.

Devil's advocate, good morning. What if the defense has intentionally ignored A88 as they knew he was ineligible? Then you would be penalizing defense for a good heads-up play.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #134 on: June 21, 2019, 08:05:41 AM »
Devil's advocate, good morning. What if the defense has intentionally ignored A88 as they knew he was ineligible? Then you would be penalizing defense for a good heads-up play.

I mean, we're still penalizing for IDP/ITP...  So it's not like we're totally screwing the defense if they decided not to cover him.  I just don't think we can get the QB for intentional grounding when he probably didn't know the TE was covered up.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #135 on: June 23, 2019, 09:50:30 PM »
Here is a good one (I have the video but is it greater than 700kb so I cannot post).

4th & 1 at the A-29 and Team A's punt lands at the A-31 and rebounds untouched by anyone to near the A-27 where A35 bats the ball forward toward to the A-29 where the HL is standing on the sideline and reaches down and picks up the ball before it goes out of bounds.


Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #136 on: June 23, 2019, 10:19:37 PM »
Was the H out of bounds? That would affect the ruling.

H out of bounds: By touching the ball, the H has made the ball dead out of bounds. B can either enforce the ILB at the spot of the foul (batting is not part of the previous spot exception from 3&1) or enforce it from the dead ball spot and get the ball. There is no loss of down for this batting because the ball crossed the neutral zone when it hit the ground at the A-31. Team B will elect to enforce the batting from the A-29 and have 1st and 10 from the A-19. GC Snap PC 25.

H inbounds: The ball is dead when the H gains possession and inadvertent whistle provisions apply. Because this was still a kick, the only option is to replay the down. However any fouls or violations can still be applied. That means Team B could accept the penalty for batting from the spot of the foul and make it 4th and 13 from the A-17. But they won't because we didn't just have a foul, we also had a violation. As mentioned above, when the ball bounced at the A-31, it crossed the neutral zone by rule. That makes A35's bat illegal touching as well. So Team B will decline the penalty for the batting and take the ITK violation at the A-27 and have 1st and 10 from there. GC Snap PC 25.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #137 on: June 23, 2019, 11:06:06 PM »
The HL was standing on the sideline when he picked the ball up - therefore out of bounds. Sorry, I should have been more overt about that point.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #138 on: June 23, 2019, 11:20:42 PM »
Then the ball was out of bounds by touching him before he gained possession, so no inadvertent whistle provisions. Just a punt out of bounds. Team B will take the penalty enforced from the dead ball spot since we have a foul by A during a scrimmage kick play and the kick crossed the LOS. B, 1st and 10, from A-19.

Online peterparsons

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #139 on: June 24, 2019, 06:09:22 AM »
The wording on the loss of down exception states "(Exception: No loss of down if the foul occurs when a legal scrimmage kick is beyond the neutral zone)." The key words here are "is beyond" since, in this scenario, the scrimmage kick is behind, not beyond, the neutral zone at the moment of the bat.

As such, the loss of down still applies in this situation and B are better off enforcing from the spot of the bat since that will give them the ball at Team A's 17 yard line.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #140 on: June 24, 2019, 06:58:12 AM »
Once a kick has crossed the neutral zone, all action is considered beyond because there is no longer a neutral zone for the ball to then go behind.

Online peterparsons

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #141 on: June 24, 2019, 08:57:05 AM »
So why doesn't the Exception say "No loss of down once a scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone" if that is the intention?

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #142 on: June 24, 2019, 09:38:24 AM »
Why have “neutral zone” and “line of scrimmage” become almost interchangeable terms? Why do we say “THE line of scrimmage” when there are two of them? Why does the new OT rule call it a two point play instead of a try down? On that note, why has “overtime” become part of our vocabulary instead of extra periods?

The answer to all is because through different editors, the language within the rule has evolved little by little either intentionally or not.

To the point of this play, I believe a play similar to this was actually on a CFO test at some point recently. I don’t have my test bank right now, but somebody may be able to find it.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #143 on: June 24, 2019, 09:51:33 AM »
Also, look at why batting has a loss of down and why the exception is there. The loss of down is to prevent of a team from illegally advancing the ball. That’s why batting, kicking, illegal forward passes, etc have a loss of down. Once a scrimmage kick has crossed the neutral zone, Team A can’t advance the ball anyway, so there’s no reason to have a loss of down. Thus the exception. In this play, Team A cant advance the ball because it’s crossed the nz, so there’s no loss of down.

Online peterparsons

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #144 on: June 24, 2019, 10:04:05 AM »
The concept of a scrimmmage kick which has crossed the neutral zone subsequently being behind the neutral zone exists in multiple places in the book. It's in 8-4-2-b-3, AR 6-3-1-I, AR 6-3-13-III and AR 10-2-4-II. As such, I would consider it a reasonable conclusion that the choice of words is deliberate.

I'm also struggling to find a reason why, on this play, we would not want to have the option of giving B the ball at the 17? It's a better spot. It's only two yards on this play, but say A's bat had caused the ball to go all the way to midfield before going out of bounds. That is a significant difference in outcome if our only option is to tack on 10 from the out of bounds spot.

Offline Sonofanump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #145 on: June 24, 2019, 10:07:25 PM »
Did they just go over this in Rule 11 podcast, saying Steve Shaw says via email, enforce from spot of foul (A27 in this case)?

Offline TxBJ

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Keep our minds working...
« Reply #146 on: June 25, 2019, 12:18:23 PM »
Did they just go over this in Rule 11 podcast, saying Steve Shaw says via email, enforce from spot of foul (A27 in this case)?
I think their play had the original punt not going beyond the LOS but the bat putting it beyond the LOS. So the bat occurred before the kick crossed the LOS. I could be mistaken, though.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 12:20:59 PM by TxBJ »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #147 on: July 06, 2019, 03:38:07 PM »
More food for thought (nothing new, really, just good reminders):

Common 'setup' for all plays:
4/10, 50, 5:00 (4), A=10, B=14.
A11 receives the snap approximately 12 yards behind the NZ, and legally punts the ball.

A) The kicked ball is blocked by B99, and the ball falls to the ground at the A-45, nearly directly behind the spot where the ball was snapped.  A11 recovers the ball (while on his feet) at the A-45, within a yard laterally of where it landed, and looks for an open receiver.  End A88 is near the sideline at the B-40 when A11 throws the ball from the A-45 directly toward A88, but to the ground in the field of play at the B-43. No ineligible players of Team A were ever more than three yards beyond the NZ prior to the pass.
Ruling:

B) The kicked ball is blocked by B99, and the ball falls to the ground at the A-45, and bounds to a point eight yards laterally from the spot where the ball was snapped (still at the A-45).  A11 recovers the ball there (while on his feet), and looks for an open receiver.  Unable to find an open receiver, from the A-45, A11 throws the ball to the ground at the B-48, near the bottom of the numbers. No eligible players of Team A were within 10 yards of the spot where the ball landed.  No ineligible players of Team A were ever more than three yards beyond the NZ prior to the pass.
Ruling:

C)  The kicked ball is blocked by B99, and the ball falls to the ground at the A-45, nearly directly behind the spot where the ball was snapped. A77 recovers the ball (while on his feet) at the A-45, within a yard laterally of where it landed, and looks for an open receiver.  End A88 is near the sideline at the B-40 when A77 throws the ball from the A-45 directly toward A88, but to the ground in the field of play at the B-43. No ineligible players of Team A were ever more than three yards beyond the NZ prior to the pass.
Ruling:

D) The kicked ball is blocked by B99, and the ball falls to the ground at the A-45, and bounds to a point eight yards laterally from the spot where the ball was snapped (still at the A-45). A77 recovers the ball there (while on his feet), and looks for an open receiver.  Unable to find an open receiver, from the A-45, A11 throws the ball to the ground at the B-48, near the bottom of the numbers. No eligible players of Team A were within 10 yards of the spot where the ball landed. No ineligible players of Team A were ever more than three yards beyond the NZ prior to the pass.
Ruling:


-------
I'll keep my fingers crossed that I didn't mess up any of this.
Robert

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #148 on: July 06, 2019, 06:58:40 PM »
More food for thought (nothing new, really, just good reminders):

Nasty but all potential real-life scenarios.

A) Legal incomplete forward pass. Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

B) Legal incomplete forward pass (7-3-2-h-ex). Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

C) Legal incomplete forward pass. Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

D) Illegal incomplete forward pass (the above exception does not apply). Team B 1/10 A-45. Snap/25.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #149 on: July 06, 2019, 07:52:38 PM »
Nasty but all potential real-life scenarios.

A) Legal incomplete forward pass. Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

B) Legal incomplete forward pass (7-3-2-h-ex). Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

C) Legal incomplete forward pass. Team B 1/10 A-50. Snap/25.

D) Illegal incomplete forward pass (the above exception does not apply). Team B 1/10 A-45. Snap/25.

Good work, as usual, Kalle.   :thumbup