Author Topic: Keep our minds working...  (Read 8332 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Navcom

  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2019, 04:30:18 PM »
you guys are the best. I'm really trying to get this down. I will let you know of my outcome, good or bad.


Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2019, 05:11:05 PM »
you guys are the best. I'm really trying to get this down. I will let you know of my outcome, good or bad.

We’re pullin’ for ya.  It will be good.

Robert

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 863
  • FAN REACTION: +154/-5
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #52 on: March 18, 2019, 09:29:34 AM »
NAVCOM,

Attached is the bulletin regarding an airborne player to which I referenced.

Robert
That bulletin is no longer valid. The rule has been updated since then to remove any concern over differences between airborne and grounder runner. I saw Rogers speak about it at a clinic and his point was "we need the player to get his body or the ball in the end zone to get a TD.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2019, 06:44:13 AM »
All, please note the language of 4-2-4 is nearly identical today as it was in 2011; the only difference is the AR references.

And please note that all play situations listed under the "Airborne Ball Carrier" section of 2011 CFO Bulletin Intentional Grounding/Airborne Ball Carrier:Extending the Goal-Line Plane have been, and are still, ARs (see AR 8-2-1-V thru VIII), since 2011.

Also note that another bulletin that same year (2011), Forward Progress for Ball Carrier Out of Bounds, interpreted that a ball carrier striding across the sideline is also airborne; thus, the goal line is not extended beyond the pylon for him.  If he can make the ball (in possession) pass inside or over the pylon before he touches the ground OB, touchdown (because the ball broke the plane of the goal line before it crossed the sideline) (AR 8-2-1-V).  If the ball is outside the pylon as he strides across the sideline and then he touches the ground OB, not a touchdown - he doesn't get the goal line extended outside the pylon (and the ball crossed the sideline without breaking the plane of the goal line).

It boils down to this:  If neither the BC nor the ball touch the pylon or ground in the end zone (before any part of the BC or ball touch something OB other than the pylon), the BC doesn't get the goal line extended (outside the pylon).  But, he does get the pylon, including the goal line (extended) directly above the pylon.  So, if he can manage to get the ball over the pylon while running or diving out of bounds, that's a TD.

Robert
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 01:31:08 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1500
  • FAN REACTION: +84/-23
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2019, 08:58:50 AM »
Also note that another bulletin that same year (2011), Forward Progress for Ball Carrier Out of Bounds, interpreted that a ball carrier striding across the sideline is also airborne.

As a LOS guy, I really wish they would update this rule in the rulebook.  The way the rule reads today (with NO AR to back up this important bulletin), when the runner strides across the sideline, we are to spot the ball where the ball is located when his foot hits the ground OOB and not where the ball crosses the sideline.

That's not the way I officiate it, but that's the way the rule reads.  This can be confusing to newer NCAA officials who don't have the 2011 bulletin.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2019, 11:02:03 AM »
As a LOS guy, I really wish they would update this rule in the rulebook.  The way the rule reads today (with NO AR to back up this important bulletin), when the runner strides across the sideline, we are to spot the ball where the ball is located when his foot hits the ground OOB and not where the ball crosses the sideline.

That's not the way I officiate it, but that's the way the rule reads.  This can be confusing to newer NCAA officials who don't have the 2011 bulletin.

4-2-4-d Exception would seem to be the applicable rule:
The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal line sif the point of progress (A.R. 8-2-1-I and A.R. 8-5-1-VII) (Exception :  When a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline, forward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline.  (A.R. 8-2-1-II-1III and V-IX).

(2011 CFO Bulletin)
Forward Progress for Ball Carrier out Bounds
Example 4.  Ball carrier A22 sweeps around left end and heads toward the sideline.  His right foot touches the ground inbounds very close to the sideline at the A-30.  As he continues to run his stride is such that his left foot then lands out of bounds at the A-32.  The ball crosses the sideline at the A-31, and A22 holds the ball such that when his left foot touches the ground the most forward point of the ball is at the A-33.
Ruling:  In this play the Exception to Rule 4-2-4-d is in effect.  By interpretation A22 is airborne as he crosses the sideline because he crosses it in stride.  The crossing point is at the A-31, so Team A will put the ball in play at the A-31.

Bossman, the rule and the example would seem to say that the progress spot is where the ball crossed the sideline.  Have you got something else that says to spot it otherwise?

(I do think I remember some confusing questions on the CFO test last year, related to progress.  But I don't feel like looking those up.)

Robert


Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1500
  • FAN REACTION: +84/-23
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2019, 02:26:24 PM »
Bossman, the rule and the example would seem to say that the progress spot is where the ball crossed the sideline.  Have you got something else that says to spot it otherwise?

No, I agree with you.  That's how it should be officiated.

However, people don't have access to bulletins from 2011.  If you pretend that bulletin never existed (like for a new college football official), how would you read that rule?

My point was that they should fix the rule... where airborne means airborne and a striding ball carrier is a striding ball carrier.  Explicitly state that in the rule.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 02:35:48 PM by bossman72 »

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2019, 03:02:53 PM »
My point was that they should fix the rule... where airborne means airborne and a striding ball carrier is a striding ball carrier.  Explicitly state that in the rule.

Yes, I concur that the language should be explicit and clear.  A new official would, indeed, likely conclude that an airborne BC is distinct from an upright, striding BC (which it was, prior to the 2011 bulletin).  So, the wording would be more like "airborne" INCLUDES a ball carrier striding across a sideline, to match the bulletin (if that is what they want to be permanent).

Good discussion.  Thank you.

Robert

Offline Morningrise

  • *
  • Posts: 537
  • FAN REACTION: +20/-5
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2019, 09:16:24 AM »
I agree that it's to say the least non-intuitive to treat striding players as "airborne." That is not what most English speakers familiar with football would assume. Based on the common connotation of the word "airborne" and the way ball carriers typically play football, almost everyone's most likely guess would be that "airborne" means a player who is diving or jumping as opposed to running on his feet.

So rather than awkwardly define "airborne" to include "striding" in an eight-year-old bulletin, wouldn't it be easier to define forward progress in terms of "airborne OR striding" players, and spell it out in 4-2-4-d explicitly?

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2019, 11:37:24 AM »
I agree that it's to say the least non-intuitive to treat striding players as "airborne." That is not what most English speakers familiar with football would assume. Based on the common connotation of the word "airborne" and the way ball carriers typically play football, almost everyone's most likely guess would be that "airborne" means a player who is diving or jumping as opposed to running on his feet.

So rather than awkwardly define "airborne" to include "striding" in an eight-year-old bulletin, wouldn't it be easier to define forward progress in terms of "airborne OR striding" players, and spell it out in 4-2-4-d explicitly?

Yeah, probably a number of ways to skin that cat, but it is a cat that needs skinning.

Robert

PS  If I didn't have a day job, I'd weed through the bulletins since around 2000 and try to figure out which ones, or which parts of each them, are, indeed, superseded or have become null & void.  But that's a task.  Maybe even something the Sec-Ed should do on an annual basis.


Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-9
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2019, 12:34:32 PM »
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2019, 06:07:02 PM »
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.

Concur.  (Think it’ll happen? 🙂)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3112
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-107
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2019, 07:49:55 PM »
What needs to happen is to not have bulletins from any year other than the current year. The sec-ed needs to go through all currently available bulletins and determine which are still valid and which are not. The ones that are still valid need to then be added to the A.R. section of the rule book. Then each year as rules and interpretations changes, the sec-ed can determine which ARs to remove. If a bulletin is issued during the season, it either gets added as an AR the next year or gets disregarded. That way officials only need a current rule book and the current year’s bulletins.

That's close to what we've been told actually happens. The bulletins' priority "clarification(s)" (rules changes and AR edits) are added/edited into the existing rules when a new book is issued and only the current ones ( 1 or 2 years of bulletins) still apply.  Those "go away" when the next printed book is officially issued.  We do not and can not reasonably maintain our own training level and train new officials based in part on an endless supply of bulletins, some of which change previous ones.  That being said, for us high school officials here in MA, it's a bit of a moot point.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2019, 12:58:08 PM »
Back on track:

3/10, B-15, 3:00 (2), A=0, B=7.  A11 advances to the B-1 where B99 grasps A11's facemask, pulling the facemask completely off A11's head, just before A11 is able to extend the ball over the goal line, as he is also falling to the ground.

Ruling:
(Include play clock and game clock status)

Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-9
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #64 on: March 25, 2019, 04:08:05 PM »
The ball is dead when A11’s helmet comes completely off. The penalty for the FMM is half the distance from the end of the run, the B-1. So final ruling is 1/G B-.5, GC on RFP, PC 25.

Next question: same play, but replay can clearly see that the helmet was still partially on A11’s head when the nose of the ball broke the plane of the goal line. Can the RO stop the game to make this a TD?

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2886
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #65 on: March 26, 2019, 01:31:42 AM »
Next question: same play, but replay can clearly see that the helmet was still partially on A11’s head when the nose of the ball broke the plane of the goal line. Can the RO stop the game to make this a TD?

We don't work replay, so a guess: this is a forward progress question with respect to the goal line, so yes, it is a reviewable play.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #66 on: April 06, 2019, 01:56:13 PM »
This one should be easy, but I might be trying to trick you.

Kickoff, A-35, 12:00 (2), A=7, B=0.  B11 catches the kick and is advancing the ball at the B-30 when B99 and B88 block A77 at the B-35.  B99's block is from the side and at the shoulder of A77.  B88's block is from the front and at the thigh of A77.  There is no delay between the blocks.  B11 advances the ball across A's goal line.

Ruling (include all clock status information):

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3112
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-107
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #67 on: April 06, 2019, 03:43:26 PM »
Chop block, 15 yards spot of the foul (B-30).  1st and 10 for B at the B-15 yard line. 25 second play clock, game clock on the snap (pure result of the play was a TD).
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #68 on: April 06, 2019, 04:37:32 PM »
Yeah, easy.  But it reminds us that a chop block can happen someplace other than around the NZ during a scrimmage down. 
B88’s block would have been illegal, regardless of the combination block, since BBW is prohibited during free kicks, period.  I would think the covering official would have seen the low block, and flagged it, without even thinking about the high block.
Robert
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 11:48:31 AM by ElvisLives »

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2019, 06:59:51 AM »
Try this:

Kickoff, A-35, 6:40 (2), A=7, B=0.  A11 kicks the ball high and it lands at the B-15 and bounces sharply toward B's end zone.  At the B-2, B99 reaches to recover the ball, but it deflects off his fingertips (H signals clock to start) and continues into B's end zone.  Team B players do not pursue the ball, but A88 runs hard toward the ball.  The ball is about 8 yard deep in the end zone as A88 overruns the ball and steps beyond the end line, but immediately returns inbounds with both feet, and falls on the still-moving ball (firmly grasping and holding it) in the end zone.

Ruling:
A) Touchback; B, 1/10, B-25.

B) Touchdown for A; A, Try, B-3.

C) Other (explain): _______________________

 

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2886
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2019, 07:10:32 AM »
C)

As A88 establishes himself inbounds before touching the ball the recovery is legal. Result of the play is a touchdown for A. But, A88 fouls immediately when he returns inbounds, and team B will have the option of enforcing the penalty from the previous spot, which they will do.

A rekick from A-30.

Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-9
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2019, 09:10:16 AM »
Agree with everything except B having an option. The subsequent dead ball does not belong to B and the result was not a touchback so there is no option. The only available enforcement is previous spot.

It also may be important to remind folks this is NOT illegal touching, so B does not have the option of a touchback here. This rule for Team A players going out of bounds on kick plays is completely unrelated to illegal touching of kicks as well as as the illegal touching rule regarding eligible Team A receivers going out of bounds.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1096
  • FAN REACTION: +74/-68
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2019, 02:15:17 PM »
Agree with everything except B having an option. The subsequent dead ball does not belong to B and the result was not a touchback so there is no option. The only available enforcement is previous spot.


I can’t truly speak for Kalle, but, by “option,” I think he meant the option of either declining the penalty, which would result in a TD for A, or accepting the penalty, which would be enforced at the previous spot.

But, yes, this is an “illegal return” foul, as much as it does not fit the model of the intent of this rule.  The rule was intended to prevent A player’s from running OB to avoid blocks, or to disappear within his own team area, then return to the field to recover an onside or pooch kick, or travel well downfield without being blocked, then return inbounds to make the tackle.  Running past the end line gains an A player zero advantage.  Or even OB at the sideline in the end zone.  I wish they would change the rule to say an “A player of team A that goes OB at a sideline, and between the goal lines,...”

Happened in my conference back in 2011 or so.  Crew ruled TD.  Ouch.  They got strong criticism, when, in fact, it was just an A player making a good play.  But, so it goes.
Robert
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 04:12:07 PM by ElvisLives »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2886
  • FAN REACTION: +102/-34
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #73 on: April 09, 2019, 03:21:27 AM »
I can’t truly speak for Kalle, but, by “option,” I think he meant the option of either declining the penalty, which would result in a TD for A, or accepting the penalty, which would be enforced at the previous spot.

Yes, any penalty may be declined, but in this case I would not bother offering the option as the choice is obvious.

Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 625
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-9
Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2019, 06:30:49 PM »
Borrowed from a thread over on the NFHS board.

B99 intercepts A's pass at the B-4 and his momentum carries him into his end zone. He subsequently fumbles the ball from the end zone and it rolls out of bounds at the B-2. During B99's run, B15 clipped at B's 10 yard line.