Author Topic: Keep our minds working...  (Read 9268 times)

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Offline Zap

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #75 on: April 10, 2019, 08:41:23 PM »
B's ball 1/10 from the B-2. The B-2 not because of the ball going out of bounds there but with the enforcement of the clip. Forward fumble OOB returns to spot of the fumble. Ball dead in EZ off a momentum goes back to the spot of possession. Enforce 1/2 distance. Snap/:25

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #76 on: April 10, 2019, 09:13:10 PM »
B's ball 1/10 from the B-2. The B-2 not because of the ball going out of bounds there but with the enforcement of the clip. Forward fumble OOB returns to spot of the fumble. Ball dead in EZ off a momentum goes back to the spot of possession. Enforce 1/2 distance. Snap/:25

Concur.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #77 on: April 11, 2019, 12:38:11 PM »
Welcome, Zap, to our forum. I hope you find it both interesting and educational.

HARVARD 6, YALE 1

HOW SO ???

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #78 on: April 11, 2019, 01:30:17 PM »
HARVARD 6, YALE 1

HOW SO ???


Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #79 on: April 12, 2019, 01:13:49 AM »
Related question: which final scores - apart from all ties - are impossible in a game?

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #80 on: April 12, 2019, 05:40:01 AM »
Related question: which final scores - apart from all ties - are impossible in a game?

2-1, 3-1, 4-1, 5-1, 7-1. 
Since a 1-point safety can only happen during a Try, the opponent would have to have at least 6 points.  But, if Team A scores a TD and a 1-point field goal on the Try, team B couldn’t suffer a 1-point safety.  Otherwise, everything else would seem to be mathematically possible.
1-0 is not possible through play, but can be the awarded score in the case of a forfeit awarded to a team not ahead in score.

That’s what I see.  Did I miss something?

Robert

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #81 on: April 12, 2019, 06:49:03 AM »
Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.

A more plausible scenario would be that on the try A12 muffs the snap, B33 recovers and runs almost to a score but fumbles at A-1, A55 bats the subsequent loose ball backwards in the field of play, and A99 recovers grounded in team A's end zone.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2019, 07:44:44 AM »
Robert, I agree with the impossible scores.

As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ

Offline Kalle

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #83 on: April 12, 2019, 08:32:26 AM »
As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ

Wow. Usually you have at least one bat or kick but looks like all touches were real muffs.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #84 on: April 12, 2019, 09:02:48 AM »
Harvard scored a touchdown. On the try from the B-3, sophomore long snapper Clark Kent accidentally snapped the ball 108 yards backward.
aWaRd aWaRd Good job, Moringrise, unlikely but more likely would be :

(1) PAT blocked;
(2) on return, R fumbles deep in K territory;
(3) K player illegally kicks, bats scoops up ball and carries back into own EZ.

Clark Kent was capable of much, but being accepted at Harvard might be a stretch!

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #85 on: April 12, 2019, 09:16:02 AM »
Robert, I agree with the impossible scores.

As far as a 1 point safety conceded by the offense, something like this could happen. https://youtu.be/QC3t5W1zlfQ

Cool video.  I have two things to say about that:
1) For anybody, but particularly HS officials, please notice the exceptional hustle on the part of the R and C to stay in advance of the ball/play as long as they possibly could, and continue to hustle until the ball became dead.  Also, the L appears to really hustle and probably would have been on the goal line, had the ball traveled that far.  He isn't in the view, but my guess is that the H was also in great position.  Great job.
2) (I can say this, because I'm not there any longer.)  Too bad this didn't happen when Sonny was there.  He'd have still tried to find some way to blame us for this debacle.  What a piece of ... uh - "work."

Robert

 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #86 on: April 12, 2019, 09:23:50 AM »
aWaRd aWaRd Good job, Moringrise, unlikely but more likely would be :

(1) PAT blocked;
(2) on return, R fumbles deep in K territory;
(3) K player illegally kicks, bats scoops up ball and carries back into own EZ.

Clark Kent was capable of much, but being accepted at Harvard might be a stretch!

Maybe Ma Kent had a slush fund she could have used to get Clark a spot on the philately team.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #87 on: April 12, 2019, 10:08:04 AM »
Maybe Ma Kent had a slush fund she could have used to get Clark a spot on the philately team.
She could have "donated" some Kriptonite (sp?)  to the Harvard Rock Museum in ensure Clark's acceptance ! With his X-ray vision, cheating would become easy once in the classroom.  LOL 

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #88 on: April 12, 2019, 12:24:47 PM »
She could have "donated" some Kriptonite (sp?)  to the Harvard Rock Museum in ensure Clark's acceptance ! With his X-ray vision, cheating would become easy once in the classroom.  LOL

Ah, but we digress.... :)

Offline Zap

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #89 on: April 15, 2019, 03:28:30 PM »
4/2@ 50. The snap goes over the punters head and he gains possession at the A-30 where he then trys to still kick the ball. he is hit and fumbles at the A-30. The ball rolls to the A-45 where it is muffed to the B-48 where A66 kicks the rolling ball backwards oob at the A-35. Ruling?

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2019, 03:37:53 PM »
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Zap

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2019, 06:02:20 PM »
I'd have 1st & 10 for team B at the dead ball spot (the A-35).  Team B will decline the penalty.

Close.... You are right about the decline of the penalty part. This was a question that stumped our rules study group and we realize this play has a .0000452% chance of happening is still a good discussion play.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2019, 07:05:28 PM by Zap »

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2019, 07:23:52 PM »
Fumbled at the A-30, out of bounds at the A-35. That’s a forward fumble out of bounds which comes back to the spot of the fumble. B 1st and 10 at the A-30.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2019, 07:38:24 PM »
Close....

Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert

Offline Zap

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #94 on: April 15, 2019, 08:55:48 PM »
Close, eh?  Hmmm.  Well, at the risk of embarrassing myself, I'll work through this.

Scrimmage play.
The ball carrier (and receiver of the snap) fumbles the ball from behind the NZ at the b-30 (the B-30 is end of that run).
The ball is still in Team A's team possession.
The ball travels to the A-45 (still behind the neutral zone, and still loose from the fumble).
The ball is muffed (irrelevant by whom, and a muff changes nothing).
The ball continues to travel to the B-48 (two yards beyond the NZ, which means almost nothing in this case).
At the B-48, A66 kicks the ball.  Since there is no mention of A66 gaining player possession, we can assume the ball was still loose when A66 kicked it.  A66's kick of the ball is a foul for illegally kicking the ball (10-yard penalty and loss of down, with Basic Spot enforcement).  However the illegal kicking foul did not change the status of the ball - it is still loose from the fumble.
The ball, still alive, travels out of bounds at the A-35 (15 yards behind the NZ).
The ball becomes dead.
Since the spot where the ball went OB was in advance of the end of spot of the fumble, the ball is returned to the artificial dead-ball spot - the spot of the fumble.
Since the ball is dead behind the line-to-gain, and the previous down was fourth down, the result of the play is Team B's ball at the artificial dead-ball spot.  The next play would be B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=snap.
Team B also has the option to accept the penalty for the Illegally Kicking the Ball.  The distance penalty is 10 yards.  The loss of down applies, so Team B will be awarded the ball, if they accept the penalty.  The penalty is enforced according to Basic Spot enforcement rules. The ball was loose from a fumble from behind the NZ, so the Basic Spot is the Previous Spot.  The foul occurred beyond the Basic Spot, so the penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot.  Thus, the penalty would yield B, 1/10, A-40, PC=25, GC=Snap. 
The result of the play is more advantageous for Team B than accepting the penalty.  So, Team B will decline the penalty and accept the result of the play.

B, 1/10, A-30, PC=25, GC=Snap.

Ah, that's closer.

Robert

In those words.... yes.... if only I could have gotten it that quick when I had it presented to me last night.  ;) I learned from this question a process to break down these plays.

Offline Etref

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2019, 12:14:48 PM »
That is why Elvis made the big bucks!   ;D

Take the complicated and break it down.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2019, 12:35:48 PM »
That is why Elvis made the big bucks!   ;D

Take the complicated and break it down.

We get paid? :o

Offline bctgp

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2019, 04:16:53 PM »
do we still consider the end of related runs by Team A behind the LOS? We wouldn't have a bean bag down right?  Just trying to clarify in my mind.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2019, 05:27:50 PM »
Yes, we should be bean bagging all fumbles. This play is exactly why we need a bag down. We need to know whether the ball went out of bounds behind or beyond the spot if the fumble. And for penalty enforcement, we need to know whether the run ended behind or beyond the neutral zone. Obviously in this case that wouldn’t be much of a question, but it could be on some plays.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Keep our minds working...
« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2019, 06:27:06 PM »
Yes, we should be bean bagging all fumbles. This play is exactly why we need a bag down. We need to know whether the ball went out of bounds behind or beyond the spot if the fumble. And for penalty enforcement, we need to know whether the run ended behind or beyond the neutral zone. Obviously in this case that wouldn’t be much of a question, but it could be on some plays.

What he said.  👆👍