Author Topic: Substitution and Participation  (Read 346 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Substitution and Participation
« on: July 10, 2019, 10:25:45 AM »
Leading the seminars on illegal substitution and Illegal Participation at our Rules meeting tomorrow night. Any advice on any special emphasis or important principles to include? I think I have all the basic stuff covered.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 12:53:57 PM »
Tis' better to shut 'er down if you think you have 12 but haven't - an easy flag to eat; then to let the play run and count upon completion and find 12.
Wing officials : If the replaced player is beside you, let it go if the ball's snapped. When you're watching the player you're not watching the play.
Give Bubba 3" (the rule) to realize that he's replaced.
On free kicks, tell 'em to count their players if you spot 12.

Offline Magician

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 01:13:33 PM »
A good trick I learned as an umpire when counting the offense is to assume there are 5 linemen and count eligible players. They will usually be in groups of 2 with an occasional group of 3. The count is usually 2-2-2 or 2-3-1 or 3-2-1. It's much quicker especially when a team is running hurry up. You'll catch the 12 players much quicker.

There are multiple instances of both IS and IP so it may help to bucketize them. For example, IS is having more than 11 players in formation prior to the snap, the replaced player doesn't leave within 3 seconds, or the 12th player running off the field prior to the snap but not getting off the field before the snap. Example of IP are participating with 12 players on the field, a non-player coming on to the field and influencing the play, a player intentionally going out of bounds and influencing the play while remaining out of bounds, and any A or K player going out of bounds and returning. Those are similar but different acts that result in the same foul. I've found officials don't always understand different acts result in the same foul.

Offline sir55

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2019, 02:41:18 PM »
Remind them of the rule change from last year on IP being enforced PSK if the foul is before the kick ends. Not PSK if IP at the snap.

Offline KWH

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2019, 03:09:10 PM »

It is never illegal to go out of bounds.

It is always illegal to further participate by having an effect on or influencing the play while OOB.

By Rule It IS illegal to return inbounds, but to rightfully earn that flag you need to participate, have an effect on the play, and/or influence the play. (Otherwise pay attention to something else)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 03:10:47 PM by KWH »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2019, 03:15:55 PM »
Guys these are great suggestions! Keep em coming.


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Offline Magician

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2019, 07:49:51 AM »
It is never illegal to go out of bounds.

It is always illegal to further participate by having an effect on or influencing the play while OOB.

By Rule It IS illegal to return inbounds, but to rightfully earn that flag you need to participate, have an effect on the play, and/or influence the play. (Otherwise pay attention to something else)

The second one is only true if you go out of bounds intentionally. If you accidentally step out of bounds and then touch the ball it's not IP.

I like your philosophy on the last one. A guy runs a round and takes one step out of bounds and the ball is thrown to someone else let it go. This is one where I would like to see the NFHS adopt the NCAA rule, especially for A eligible receivers. It's not a foul to step out on your own and return. It's a foul to be the first to touch the pass.

Offline KWH

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2019, 06:12:19 PM »
The second one is only true if you go out of bounds intentionally. If you accidentally step out of bounds and then touch the ball it's not IP.

I like your philosophy on the last one. A guy runs a round and takes one step out of bounds and the ball is thrown to someone else let it go. This is one where I would like to see the NFHS adopt the NCAA rule, especially for A eligible receivers. It's not a foul to step out on your own and return. It's a foul to be the first to touch the pass.


Brian -
We can debate NFHS intentional OOB,  versus accidental OOB, versus forced OOB anytime you want, but, I insist that First,
we have a pitcher in front of us that Ralph has purchased.

As for the NCAA rule versus the NFHS rule.
Having an F and an S on the field REALLY helps
Not having an F and an S on the field makes it REALLY tough. Not to mention 4 man officiating & 3 man officiating crew.

No doubt the NCAA penalty better fits the crime, but can we cover it with 5 or less?

If my murkey memory serves me, I believe  we already had this conversation but I do not recall our hostess's name.   :angel:
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 12:32:00 PM by KWH »

Offline bossman72

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2019, 09:06:22 PM »
Tis' better to shut 'er down if you think you have 12 but haven't - an easy flag to eat; then to let the play run and count upon completion and find 12.
Wing officials : If the replaced player is beside you, let it go if the ball's snapped. When you're watching the player you're not watching the play.
Give Bubba 3" (the rule) to realize that he's replaced.
On free kicks, tell 'em to count their players if you spot 12.

One of my rule change suggestions: Starting the play with 12 should only be 5 yards.  Currently, the difference between 5 and 15 is how fast we get our count.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2019, 09:47:56 PM »
Seminar went well thanks for all the input.


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Offline KWH

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2019, 12:35:05 PM »
One of my rule change suggestions: Starting the play with 12 should only be 5 yards.  Currently, the difference between 5 and 15 is how fast we get our count.

Sometimes the best we can do is shut the play down after it has started and still call it a dead ball foul.

Or are you suggesting if they run and entire play with 12 it is only a five yard penalty?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2019, 05:29:29 PM »
Sometimes the best we can do is shut the play down after it has started and still call it a dead ball foul.

I would do exactly that.  If you get your count a bit late as the ball is being snapped of it has just been snapped, I would kill it and do the 5 DB substitution foul.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 07:32:07 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Magician

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Re: Substitution and Participation
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 06:13:14 PM »
I would do exactly that.  IF you get your count a bit late as the ball is being snapped of it has just been snapped, I would kill it and do the 5 DB substitution foul.

There is nothing stopping you from doing that now. This is a great example of officiating WITH the rule book and not BY the rule book. I would be careful doing it too late but you can still do it. I had one last year where a team substituted late on a punt so in the scramble my count was definitely late. I finished it after the snap, but let it go. The punt ended up being downed inside the 5. We brought it back 15 and replayed the down because the opponent didn't want to start inside their 20. I wish I had shut it down late and made it an illegal substitution. I didn't feel bad through because it was caused by their very poor substitution process. They created the situation.