Author Topic: Lesson Learned  (Read 753 times)

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Offline BetweenTheLines

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Lesson Learned
« on: October 09, 2019, 12:21:20 PM »
I've had a couple of blocks in the back flagged on B this year. I'm considering calling these just a personal foul from now on after hearing from the offended coach that the defense can't be flagged for that. What do ya'll think?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2019, 12:31:22 PM »
I think itís better to call it what it is and educate the coach. Plus, BIB is only 10 yds and personal foul is 15.


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Offline Magician

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2019, 12:36:30 PM »
Block in the back is an advantage/disadvantage foul so can defense gain an advantage by blocking an offensive player in the back? Yes it's possible but unlikely. You would likely have to determine the player blocked was trying to get to someone else to execute a block and the block in the back prevented it. If this act is a foul it's much more likely to be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness than an illegal block in the back. If it doesn't raise to that level then it's probably a good no call.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2019, 12:37:48 PM »
Block in the back is an advantage/disadvantage foul so can defense gain an advantage by blocking an offensive player in the back? Yes it's possible but unlikely. You would likely have to determine the player blocked was trying to get to someone else to execute a block and the block in the back prevented it. If this act is a foul it's much more likely to be a personal foul for unnecessary roughness than an illegal block in the back. If it doesn't raise to that level then it's probably a good no call.

Beat me to it.

This is a great topic for pregame discussion with your crew.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM »
If you didn't see it, you can't call it

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2019, 01:28:01 PM »
 They'll also tell you the defense can't hold or clip either.  Better to tune them out than start changing your calls to suit their lobbying, or worse change the foul to something that it definitely isn't.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2019, 01:30:16 PM »
Exactly. I can think of many situations when B can be guilty of an illegal block in the back. If itís that, then itís that.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2019, 02:52:40 PM »
Help me out with this. I may be assuming something the rules don't say.
2-17-3" ART. 3 . . . Blocking in the back is permitted in the free-blocking zone when the following conditions are met:

a. By offensive linemen who are on the line of scrimmage and in the zone at the snap.

b. Against defensive players who are in the zone at the snap.

c. The contact is in the zone.

Does this mean that ONLY offensive linemen may block in the back, and if B blocks in the back it's a foul? That's the way I've always interpreted it.
OR, does it mean that the only foul we should call for a block in the back is an offensive foul, and B is free to hit another player in the back during the down?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2019, 03:47:20 PM »
If you'll read on down in Article 4, I think that will answer your question, Calhoun.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2019, 04:20:33 PM »
Exactly. I can think of many situations when B can be guilty of an illegal block in the back. If itís that, then itís that.

NFHS 9-3-5 explains when "a player (Offense or Defense) shall not block an opponent in the back EXCEPT
a. In the FBZ when the contact meets the requirements of 2-17.

b. Using hands or arms to contact an opponent ABOVE THE WAIST in warding off a blocker, or when attempting to reach a runner,or
catch or recover a loose ball which he may legally touch or possess

c. To tackle a runner, or player pretending to be a runner.

PENALTY (Art 5) "Blocking in the back" - Sig 43 - 10 yards
« Last Edit: October 09, 2019, 04:37:44 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2019, 04:50:01 PM »
If you'll read on down in Article 4, I think that will answer your question, Calhoun.
So the way I read that, blocking in the back is prohibited by either team, with the exception that A can block in the back in the zone while the ball is in the zone.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2019, 08:00:19 PM »
"Back in the last Century" sounds sooo long ago, but in the NFHS 1999 Rule book; CLIPPING (nfhs:2-5-ART 1) defined "CLIPPING is:

a. Charging or falling  into the back or across the leg(s) of an opponent who is not a runner or pretending to be a runner.
                                                            or

b.Pushing by use of hands or arms on an opponents back.


Art 2: added the advice, "Such cases shall not be ruled clipping unless the official sees the initial contact.  When in doubt, or the opponent turns his back, or the block is from the side, it is NOT clipping if the opponent was able to see the blocker".

Of course that was before "Illegal Block in the Back" was created.

Offline prab

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2019, 10:03:17 PM »
My hat is off to anyone who still has a 1999 NFHS rule book!!!

Offline refjeff

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2019, 06:37:04 AM »
Most of the times I have seen B push an opponent in the back it has not been a foul.  9.3.5 A player shall not block an opponent in the back except:  b. Using hands and arms to contact an opponent above the waist in warding off a blocker, or when attempting to reach a runner, or catch or recover a loose ball which he may legally touch or possess.

Almost every other time is was a retaliatory act, and was correctly penalized as a personal foul for unnecessary roughness.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Lesson Learned
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2019, 06:44:39 AM »
If itís a PF call it a PF. if itís a BIB, call it that. Iíve seen both. The times Iíve called BIB it wasnít a push, it was a hit in the back (not a push) that didnít qualify as a personal foul.

Iím somewhat surprised at the pushback on this. A BIB on the defense is really no different than a Block below the waist by the defense, is it? We donít elevate those to PF just because itís called a block.

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« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 06:49:41 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Magician

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2019, 09:19:19 AM »
If itís a PF call it a PF. if itís a BIB, call it that. Iíve seen both. The times Iíve called BIB it wasnít a push, it was a hit in the back (not a push) that didnít qualify as a personal foul.

Iím somewhat surprised at the pushback on this. A BIB on the defense is really no different than a Block below the waist by the defense, is it? We donít elevate those to PF just because itís called a block.

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Block below the waist is a safety foul and should be called every time it's done illegally. Block in the back is an advantage/disadvantage foul which is why it was separated from the clipping foul and given a 10-yard penalty rather than 15.

Someone else mentioned defensive holding. There are two common examples where defensive holding should be called. One is on an eligible receiver before the ball is thrown. The other is usually a defensive lineman holding the offensive lineman trying to clear him to get to the next level. Anything other than that is likely not defensive holding. Block in the back by the defense is also very rare. It could possibly happen similar to holding - a defender pushes an eligible receiver to the ground from behind (could also be illegal use of hands) or the defender pushes the lineman in the back who is trying to get out front to block the next level. But if the defender is behind the blocker at that point, he's probably between the blocker and runner and it would be much more likely he'll be pursuing the runner. If he pushes the offensive player in the back it's probably totally unnecessary and could be a personal foul.

This is one of those things I was taught once I really started to understand HOW to officiate and not just blindly apply rules literally. I think it's what ultimately separates good officials from great officials. Understanding the why and officiating WITH the book rather than BY the book. Steve Woods of the NFL spoke at a high school clinic I attended and talked about Football IQ. It was a very enlightening presentation.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2019, 09:56:26 AM »
I somewhat anticipated your answer, and appreciate the explanation. I am aware of advantage/disadvantage philosophy and try to apply it as much as possible. One of the problems I have is with the classification of fouls. To my knowledge, there is no official document produced by NFHS that categorizes which fouls are safety-related, which are advantage/disadvantage, and which may be both depending on context. I am also unaware of any official word from the NFHS regarding the advantage/disadvantage philosophy. If you have some FED stuff, I would appreciate a copy of it. I'm also kind of reluctant to embrace NCAA principles at the High School level for several reasons, one of which is the difference in the codes. While many principles are beneficial to us "lower-level" guys, some are fundamentally different.

As to all the different situations when B can be called for blocking in the back, I would suggest that just like a LB can "cut" a pulling guard, he can also block him in the back, preventing him from executing his block, allowing a teammate to make a tackle. a defensive player can hit a receiver behind the line waiting for a screen pass in the back, preventing the player from catching the ball. It's not DP, not illegal use of hands, not defensive holding, but is certainly a foul, because the defense can't block in the back.

You missed a Defensive Holding situation. Much like the block in the back against a receiver behind the line of scrimmage, if the defensive player tackles the receiver before the ball gets there, I believe that's a foul for holding.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and your philosophical approach to officiating. I've learned a bunch as a result of your posts. Thanks.

Offline BetweenTheLines

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2019, 10:02:01 AM »
This has been a great thread for me. There are some great points of view and philosophy from one call.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 10:05:21 AM by BetweenTheLines »

Offline Magician

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2019, 01:43:08 PM »
I somewhat anticipated your answer, and appreciate the explanation. I am aware of advantage/disadvantage philosophy and try to apply it as much as possible. One of the problems I have is with the classification of fouls. To my knowledge, there is no official document produced by NFHS that categorizes which fouls are safety-related, which are advantage/disadvantage, and which may be both depending on context. I am also unaware of any official word from the NFHS regarding the advantage/disadvantage philosophy. If you have some FED stuff, I would appreciate a copy of it. I'm also kind of reluctant to embrace NCAA principles at the High School level for several reasons, one of which is the difference in the codes. While many principles are beneficial to us "lower-level" guys, some are fundamentally different.

The NFHS doesn't publish things like philosophy documents. The closest would probably be things like the Reddings guide. The NFHS exists primarily just to produce the rule books and manage the rule change process. Philosophy comes largely from the member associations and local associations. Some states have stronger rule interpreters which help make these philosophies consistent. Broader forums like these discussion boards helps to commonize some of these philosophies across states, but there will be differences. NCAA philosophies definitely influence some of these because many of us have mentors who work NCAA. This philosophy about block in the back though is one I learned through our local HS association very early in my career almost 20 years ago. It was reinforced by NCAA and NFL officials who have been clinicians at clinics I've attended.

Advantage/disadvantage, safety, and procedural fouls are pretty obvious. For the most part they are the 15/10/5 yard penalties. Clipping used to involve a block in the back above the waist and was 15 yards. It was separated because the block above the waist wasn't considered a safety issue. They separated it and made it a 10-yard penalty because it's more of an advantage/disadvantage foul.

As to all the different situations when B can be called for blocking in the back, I would suggest that just like a LB can "cut" a pulling guard, he can also block him in the back, preventing him from executing his block, allowing a teammate to make a tackle. a defensive player can hit a receiver behind the line waiting for a screen pass in the back, preventing the player from catching the ball. It's not DP, not illegal use of hands, not defensive holding, but is certainly a foul, because the defense can't block in the back.

A LB can't cut anyone unless he moves up to the LOS and is stationary at the snap. He definitely can never cut a pulling guard. But if he does push in the back a pulling guard who is trying to get to someone else, it could definitely be a foul. But it's extremely unlikely because the pulling guard is usually in front of the runner so the defender would have to be behind the blocker which by definition would put him between the blocker and the runner. It's extremely unlikely he'll touch this blocker. The other example of hitting the back behind the LOS before the pass arrives is not a foul. He can legally do that to blow up a screen play.

You missed a Defensive Holding situation. Much like the block in the back against a receiver behind the line of scrimmage, if the defensive player tackles the receiver before the ball gets there, I believe that's a foul for holding.

If he tackles a receiver before the ball arrives it's DPI. If he goes it before the ball is thrown it's defensive holding. That's the example I provided.

Anyway, I appreciate your comments and your philosophical approach to officiating. I've learned a bunch as a result of your posts. Thanks.

Thank you. Everyone is hear to learn. Even if you are teaching you are still learning.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2019, 02:33:28 PM »
.....And remember, a block in the back by A after a TD is - like a holding - nothing.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2019, 02:47:34 PM »
.....And remember, a block in the back by A after a TD is - like a holding - nothing.
Exactly. Not a personal foul.

Magician- look back over your reply to me regarding the tackling of a receiver BEHIND the los. Thatís not DPI is it? I am pretty sure DPI can only occur beyond the NZ.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2019, 03:30:43 PM »
One more post and I'm done with this topic. Magician referenced Redding as a source for philosophy. I looked at the block in the back section and found this:
Page 107, Additional example 6: In the free-blocking zone before the ball leaves the zone, defensive end B81 was on the line and in the zone at the snap blocks A52 (a) below the waist and from behind, (b) below the waist and from in front, or (c) in the back above the waist. RULING: An illegal block in (a) and (c), but a legal block in (b). In (c), only offensive linemen may legally block from behind in the zone. In (b), defensive linemen may legally block opponents low if the opponent was in the zone and on the line at the snap.

 

Offline Magician

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2019, 04:01:01 PM »
Exactly. Not a personal foul.

Magician- look back over your reply to me regarding the tackling of a receiver BEHIND the los. Thatís not DPI is it? I am pretty sure DPI can only occur beyond the NZ.


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I didn't read your comment as a tackling the receiver behind the LOS. I read it as tackling him beyond. You are correct.

Offline InsideTheStripes

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2019, 08:17:31 PM »
Next time I call an IBB on B will be the first.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: Lesson Learned
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2019, 05:03:52 PM »
I actually had my umpire call a Block in the back on the defense 2 weeks ago. When he told me he had a flag for this, I guess that I looked at him funny because he started to explain what he saw. According to him, the LB hit the lead blocker in the back and knocked him down. This allow another B player to not have to engage the lead blocker and that player made the tackle on the runner. Seems like the block in the back created a clear disadvantage for the offense and since it was an attempt to get at the ball or the runner, it fits the definition of an illegal block in the back. Of course, the coach wasn't happy.