Author Topic: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??  (Read 4984 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline brettjr2005

  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-2
  • CIF
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2019, 10:22:20 AM »
The factor here that prevented the crew from correcting the error was solely the end of the quarter.  In this case the number of plays run since the down error was not relevant.  We can always correct a down number error during any series prior to the chains moving and the ball being marked RFP for a following 1st down.
Correct, my wording on that was poor. I meant that it had already been 3 plays since they had awarded the new series of downs, but going back now it says they didn't ever move the sticks and made the adjustment on third down. I'm not sure how all 5 guys on the crew could allow that to happen without getting together and talking about it. It's not like the chain crew just moved and nobody caught it. Odd.

In any event, it's certainly not an issue that has anything to do with NFHS rules. It's simply a crew error.

Edit: actually they *did* set it back to first down, but then again corrected after the box person tried to switch it to 3rd down as the second down play was occurring. So the question then is, did they correct it to 1st and 13 or did they set it to 1st and 10 for some reason? Had they set it to 1st and 10 (for some reason) that would constitute a new series of downs, but it sounds like they set it to 1st and 13.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 11:41:09 AM by brettjr2005 »

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 104
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-1
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2019, 10:59:49 AM »
So I'm having trouble visualizing/defining to myself what occurred here, the way the article is written.

Is the issue that on the penalty enforcement, it still should have been 2nd down, and they somehow thought that the box had already been set to 2, and then told them to put it back to first down, to replay the down?

I'm just not getting why the article say 'perhaps they thought the penalty occurred far enough beyond the line.'  Wouldn't the (accepted) foul have to have been at the 12, for the result of the play to have been a first down at the 22?  12 yardline for the foul, mark off 10? 

this article is incredibly confusing to me as to figuring out what exactly happened in this sequence

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2019, 11:04:44 AM »
Iím with you, but the only sense I can make is that the guy writing assumed if the penalty had been far enough ahead of the chains the crew could have awarded A a new series even with the penalty. Thatís the only thing I can come up with. Instead of replaying 2nd down they have them a first down even after the penalty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2019, 11:41:24 AM »
Pretty sure there's a FED case play that says the mandatory three minutes must be put up and started separately after the "normal" halftime.

If not, almost all states do it that way.

We're just told that the 3:00 must be given. It's on the coaches to decide what to do with it.

In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00.  Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark.  Seems to be working pretty well for us.  We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3273
  • FAN REACTION: +425/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2019, 01:05:13 PM »
Iím with you, but the only sense I can make is that the guy writing assumed if the penalty had been far enough ahead of the chains the crew could have awarded A a new series even with the penalty. Thatís the only thing I can come up with. Instead of replaying 2nd down they have them a first down even after the penalty.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm confused on this, too. A mechanic we use to determine, if after the penalty is to be enforced a new series will be created, is :

(1) Replace the flag with the ball.
(2) Bring out the chains.
(3) Secure the lead stake.
(4) Bring the trail stake around so it is now the lead stake.
(5) If the ball is inside the now lead stake, you don't have a new series. If the ball is touching or in advance of the lead stake, you do.

Don't bother if the game is a blowout, but you may want to if the game is on the line.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2019, 01:22:21 PM »
Yeah I agree. Iím sure it wasnít the case. Just a journalist thinking aloud without knowing what he was talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2353
  • FAN REACTION: +85/-13
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2019, 02:43:44 PM »
In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00.  Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark.  Seems to be working pretty well for us.  We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.

We run the 10, 15, or 20 minutes for halftime (or more, for homecoming), then the R winds the clock once the teams have vacated the field.  At the end of halftime, our clock operators put the three minutes on the clock and the R again winds the clock. 

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
  • FAN REACTION: +188/-8
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #57 on: November 14, 2019, 08:41:52 PM »
I'm confused on this, too. A mechanic we use to determine, if after the penalty is to be enforced a new series will be created, is :

(1) Replace the flag with the ball.
(2) Bring out the chains.
(3) Secure the lead stake.
(4) Bring the trail stake around so it is now the lead stake.
(5) If the ball is inside the now lead stake, you don't have a new series. If the ball is touching or in advance of the lead stake, you do.

Don't bother if the game is a blowout, but you may want to if the game is on the line.

If you are on a well marked field and use the lines to start a new series just look at where the ball is in relation to the line the penalty distance in advance or behind the line to gain.

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 784
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #58 on: November 14, 2019, 09:38:18 PM »
In my games this year most of the R's have instructed the CO's to put 15, 12, or 10, minutes on the clock (based on pregame discussions with both coaches) and then to stop the clock at 3:00.  Wait/confirm that both teams are back on the field then start the clock from that 3 minute mark.  Seems to be working pretty well for us.  We've been instructed that the last 3 minutes cannot run until both teams are present on the field.

So what happens when a team doesn't come back out in a timely manner to start the last 3 minutes? Do you just sit and wait for them? It's very likely that it has never happened, but at some point that is a USC penalty on the head coach.

Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2019, 04:28:40 AM »
So what happens when a team doesn't come back out in a timely manner to start the last 3 minutes? Do you just sit and wait for them? It's very likely that it has never happened, but at some point that is a USC penalty on the head coach.

Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.

If the teams are not in sight when the clock hits 3:00, then the wing officials go get their respective teams.  We have never (in a crew I've been on) flagged a team for coming out late for the 2nd half.  The halftime length is always part of the pregame discussion that the R+U have with the head coaches and the length of that time is based on their agreement.  That's worked OK all year and based on our guidance from the MIAA is fine with the caveat that we must have a full 3 minutes at the end of the intermission with both teams present on the field. 
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline brettjr2005

  • *
  • Posts: 70
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-2
  • CIF
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2019, 09:33:14 AM »
Also, by rule, halftime cannot be shorter than 10 minutes which *does not* include the 3 minute warm up period. If you have a 10 minute halftime where the 3 minute warm up is the final 3 of those ten, then your halftime is only 7 minutes long -- in violation of 3-1-1.

Agreed, but for whatever reason a lot of associations seem to allow fudging it during halftime. Some include the 3 in the time, others ignore if the 3 never gets put up, and plenty allow more than 20 minutes (mostly for homecoming) even though the rule and case book are very clear that they're not allowed to do that.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:19:14 AM by brettjr2005 »

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 784
  • FAN REACTION: +42/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2019, 10:15:03 AM »
If the teams are not in sight when the clock hits 3:00, then the wing officials go get their respective teams.  We have never (in a crew I've been on) flagged a team for coming out late for the 2nd half.

Go get them? Oh, no, that's not happening, mostly because I wouldn't know where they are or how many locked doors are between us.

I've been part of two games where a team was flagged (same team, unsurprisingly) only because they failed to show up at any time during the 3 minutes and only trotted back on field barely in time for the second half kickoff.

The halftime length is always part of the pregame discussion that the R+U have with the head coaches and the length of that time is based on their agreement.  That's worked OK all year and based on our guidance from the MIAA is fine with the caveat that we must have a full 3 minutes at the end of the intermission with both teams present on the field.

If everybody is in agreement, I'm not going to be a stick in the mud and flag it up the chain of command or anything -- just saying that *by rule* that may not be a long enough halftime. I've heard tell of JV games in bad weather that have running clocks in the first quarter (by coach agreement, not automatic) where halftime was only 5 minutes... again not rule based, but everybody agreed and nobody is going to complain.

Offline bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2460
  • FAN REACTION: +78/-26
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2019, 08:14:44 AM »
We notify the teams at 5:00 left in the halftime. If they donít show any signs of coming out, we start bugging them at 3:00.  And 2:00.  And 1:00.  If they donít show up by 0:00, theyíve got nobody but themselves to blame for the USC.

But we never start the 3:00 warmup until both teams are back, whenever that may be.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-593
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2019, 10:49:08 AM »

If everybody is in agreement, I'm not going to be a stick in the mud and flag it up the chain of command or anything -- just saying that *by rule* that may not be a long enough halftime.

Just a reminder, when the MANDATORY 3 min "Warm Up" was added, the purpose was to give the team opportunity to "loosen" their players up before participating.  How the teams elected to do so, was up to, and the responsibility of the team.

God forbid, a player gets hurt thereafter, and an Insurance Co. attorney is looking for somewhere to shift blame, 1st stop on that search might be, "Did the officials insure compliance with the MANDATORY 3 Min RULE.(NFHS Table 3-1)  If so, the search should move to it's nest stop, if not you may be involved in a long, unpleasant ride. 

Doesn't happen often, but the lawsuit that helped create the current "Restricted Area" rules, was prompted by a Disability claim lawsuit instituted by an insurance company regarding a disability claim by the coach who was injured in a sideline collision that forced his premature retirement. The crew of officials, included in the suit, were eventually released, after several YEARS of litigation.


Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2019, 07:15:47 AM »
But we never start the 3:00 warmup until both teams are back, whenever that may be.

We also never start the 3:00 until both teams are back on the field.  We do stop the 3:00 if both teams are done their warmups and are coming out onto the field for the 2nd half kickoff.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2019, 07:38:53 AM »
We typically have a 20:00 half. I canít remember not having a 20:00 half. When that 20 is gone we put 3:00 up and start it. If either team or neither team is has at least some players on the field or sideline, we throw a flag. FWIW, Iíve never had to throw a flag in 28 years. We also let the full 3:00 expire before we play.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3273
  • FAN REACTION: +425/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #66 on: November 18, 2019, 08:35:48 AM »
We also never start the 3:00 until both teams are back on the field.  We do stop the 3:00 if both teams are done their warmups and are coming out onto the field for the 2nd half kickoff.
New case 3.1.1D states the warmup 3:00 should start when the allotted halftime ends. USC on head coach on team that doesn't have his team out.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger  ;).

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-593
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #67 on: November 18, 2019, 09:18:30 AM »
New case 3.1.1D states the warmup 3:00 should start when the allotted halftime ends. USC on head coach on team that doesn't have his team out.

Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger  ;).

Seems like the NFHS also has a patient "mother", and follows the same advise pattern; "Be nice (offer constructive suggestions), until it's time NOT to be nice (put her foot down, and remind everyone there's a consequence for not paying attention).  Life has usually been better when listening to Mom. 

Offline Tobes

  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2019, 11:59:21 PM »
The state championships AKA Super Bowls are this Friday and Saturday at Gillette Stadium. Two games on Friday, six on Saturday.

To fit all of them in, they're playing 10-minute quarters. Also halftime will be 14 minutes, with no three-minute warmup period.



Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 104
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-1
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2019, 01:32:10 AM »
14 minutes halftimes?  Here in Texas, championships are played at Jerry's World, spread out over 4 days, 3 games a day, all televised with IR.  Pretty sure they have 30 min halves too.  That's crazy they try to cram in 6 in one day.

Just curious, but what's ballpark attendance numbers for those games? 

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2019, 06:16:47 AM »
The state championships AKA Super Bowls are this Friday and Saturday at Gillette Stadium. Two games on Friday, six on Saturday.

To fit all of them in, they're playing 10-minute quarters. Also halftime will be 14 minutes, with no three-minute warmup period.

MIAA's written guidance package issued to officiating crews has halftime set at " Ö up to 15 minutes" plus the mandatory "3 minute warmup period".  The games will be played with 10 minute periods.  Schedule has 2 hour time slots per game with an extra 30 minutes between each pair of games to allow for any unexpected delays.  Pregame warmups are done in the Patriot's practice "dome" adjacent to the stadium, and awards are given out in an off-field area while the next game is getting started.

A very tight schedule but it's been done pretty much this way for years and it works.  In the past all games have been televised but we do not use IR.  I believe that all 8 game will be televised this year as well.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 104
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-1
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2019, 10:46:52 AM »
Is there a reason, my comment I have typed up, when I try to post it gives a 403 error?  I can put other comments in, just not that particular one. edit:  figured it out, a particular prescription drug name was the issue. 

I had shoulder surgery the week of championship games last year, IR is a blessing and a curse as a spectator watching.  Blessing because it allows us to get the calls right; curse because during some games, they would call down to the field to initiate a replay, it seemed, every other play.  Made some of the games take FOREVER due to the number of, and length of replays.  I think we timed one at over 6 minutes, that might have been through a tr^m^dol haze but I remember talking about it at the time to whoever was in the room, LOL.  It was a momentum killer for sure.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:50:07 AM by dammitbobby »

Offline Tobes

  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2019, 11:50:10 AM »
MIAA's written guidance package issued to officiating crews has halftime set at " Ö up to 15 minutes" plus the mandatory "3 minute warmup period".  The games will be played with 10 minute periods.  Schedule has 2 hour time slots per game with an extra 30 minutes between each pair of games to allow for any unexpected delays.  Pregame warmups are done in the Patriot's practice "dome" adjacent to the stadium, and awards are given out in an off-field area while the next game is getting started.

A very tight schedule but it's been done pretty much this way for years and it works.  In the past all games have been televised but we do not use IR.  I believe that all 8 game will be televised this year as well.

The Herald reporter covering the MIAA breakfast tweeted 14 minutes and no 3-minute warmup, but perhaps he was wrong.

They also do the awards off the field, in a concourse area of one of the end zones.

Offline Tobes

  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: How's it going for those in the Bay State ??
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2019, 11:54:14 AM »
14 minutes halftimes?  Here in Texas, championships are played at Jerry's World, spread out over 4 days, 3 games a day, all televised with IR.  Pretty sure they have 30 min halves too.  That's crazy they try to cram in 6 in one day.

Just curious, but what's ballpark attendance numbers for those games?

It varies. In the years I've been there, I've seen a mostly full lower bowl between the 20s on one sideline (the only section open) for some games and I've seen other games where it looked like there were more people on the field than in the stands.