Author Topic: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.  (Read 10394 times)

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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #125 on: November 13, 2019, 06:42:04 PM »
In that case, for consistency's sake, we shouldn't shave time at all. Start the game clock when the ball is spotted.

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #126 on: November 14, 2019, 02:00:29 AM »
Except as we get into the 2nd half of the 2nd and 4th quarters, not just the last 2 minutes, it almost always impacts 1 team more than the other.  Just follow the rule, it's pretty simple.  Ball on the ground, U back, it's RFP, wind the clock.

That would be fine. A lot will depend on score as well. If it's the second half and it's a 3-4 score game with 5 minutes left you probably don't implement pure timing rules unless the losing team is trying to get a score inside the last minute or two.

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #127 on: November 14, 2019, 02:03:31 AM »
In that case, for consistency's sake, we shouldn't shave time at all. Start the game clock when the ball is spotted.

I feel like a broken record. The consistency is dead ball to DOG. The ball will be spotted and ready for play (2 separate acts separated by time). If you are going to follow the rule you don't start the game clock when the ball is spotted. You start it when it's ready for play as indicated by the U stepping away from the ball. If the crew isn't ready (including at least the box or back stake) you shouldn't step away away.

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #128 on: November 14, 2019, 06:31:23 AM »
I feel like a broken record. The consistency is dead ball to DOG.

Not so, IMO you're missing the point.  The consistency between dead ball and DOG is now BY RULE not a variable - it's out of our hands, it's built into the 40 second play clock mechanics.  The consistency that we need to work on that is very inconsistent from crew to crew and is within our control is the time between the dead ball and RFP based on what I'm seeing this season.  We should be striving to hit the goal of having the ball ready between 10-12 seconds on every play, not just 1st downs.  That 10-12 second time is where the whole 40 second play clock came from to begin with.  That was very clear when the 40 second play clock was initiated in that other rule book.  If the ball is actually RFP before that fine, it's a shorter time, but in any case it should not be a shorter time if the ball is not RFP.  The only exception to that should be late in a non-competitive game when it very clear what the outcome is going to be.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #129 on: November 14, 2019, 07:25:20 AM »
IMO, this inconsistency “problem” is only a problem on this message board. I’ve not experienced one complaint this year over this “problem.” I’ve also talked with at least 10 WH’s in our area and they have not had a consistency complaint either. I realize that’s a small test audience, but I really believe this is a problem in the technical minds of those of us nitpicking the rules/mechanics than actually hindering or affecting the outcome of the game on Friday night.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2019, 07:29:05 AM »
FWIW, you would be amazed at how “consistent” the down box guys are on Any given Friday night. If he’s slow in the first quarter, he’s gonna be slow all night. Once we get into a rhythm, both teams seem to adapt just fine. Same way with my U. He’s the same speed all night long. 


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #131 on: November 14, 2019, 08:30:50 AM »
By far, the most critical aspect of consistency in the game is the PCO. Some start the PC immediately when the ball becomes dead, others wait for the suggested "3 seconds" Talk about inconsistency. He alone can shave off (or add to) 9-12 seconds on every series...
Which wouldn't matter during the course of a blowout or in the middle of a game, but would be tremendously impactful as the game is winding down

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #132 on: November 14, 2019, 08:54:46 PM »
Not so, IMO you're missing the point.  The consistency between dead ball and DOG is now BY RULE not a variable - it's out of our hands, it's built into the 40 second play clock mechanics.  The consistency that we need to work on that is very inconsistent from crew to crew and is within our control is the time between the dead ball and RFP based on what I'm seeing this season.  We should be striving to hit the goal of having the ball ready between 10-12 seconds on every play, not just 1st downs.  That 10-12 second time is where the whole 40 second play clock came from to begin with.  That was very clear when the 40 second play clock was initiated in that other rule book.  If the ball is actually RFP before that fine, it's a shorter time, but in any case it should not be a shorter time if the ball is not RFP.  The only exception to that should be late in a non-competitive game when it very clear what the outcome is going to be.

The well documented mechanic under the 25-second play clock stated the ball should be marked RFP 12-15 seconds after the ball becomes dead. If you were a consistent crew you were probably in that range 75% of the time. But the other 25% were either faster or slower. Now it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play at 4 seconds or 15 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from the end of the previous down to snap the ball.

Yes, there are some crews that were often much closer than the 12-15 seconds most of the time. This was a huge change in pace for them. For most good crews though that part of it should have been little or change at all other than the U controlling RFP when he stepped away rather than the R blowing a whistle.

This is my third time through this (NCAA, HS experiment, HS overall) and the first two times there was similar perceptions we need to go really fast. The other two realized before the season really got going that wasn't the case. This implementation still has this misconception in many parts of the country.

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2019, 07:10:51 AM »
Now it doesn't matter if the ball is ready for play at 4 seconds or 15 seconds, the offense still has 40 seconds from the end of the previous down to snap the ball.

Again, it really does matter.  Matters a lot if you're the trailing team in a 1 score game and are playing defense.  That's a 10 or 11 second difference in REAL GAME CLOCK TIME.  If A had gotten 3 1st downs before they had to punt that's a 30 second differential.  That does matter.
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Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2019, 11:05:38 PM »
Again, it really does matter.  Matters a lot if you're the trailing team in a 1 score game and are playing defense.  That's a 10 or 11 second difference in REAL GAME CLOCK TIME.  If A had gotten 3 1st downs before they had to punt that's a 30 second differential.  That does matter.

That's no different than the 25-second play clock. You were instructed to start it 3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted. The U can hold up 3-5 seconds after the ball is spotted as well. If they get a first down on a dive up the middle at the feet of the U, the ball could be spotted very quickly. If there was a long gain it may take closer to 15 seconds to get the ball rotated in. Most of the time it will be 8-12 seconds but it will vary. It definitely shouldn't be 30-40 seconds like some really slow crews used to do under the 25-second play clock.

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #135 on: November 18, 2019, 09:35:02 AM »
That's no different than the 25-second play clock. You were instructed to start it 3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted.

That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U. 
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Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #136 on: November 18, 2019, 09:38:51 PM »
That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U. 

Outside the last few minutes of a half where time is critical you can start it sooner. But when time gets more critical at the end of a half you should follow the rule book more specifically. Wind the game clock when the ball is actually ready for play (when the U steps away).

Offline brettjr2005

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #137 on: November 18, 2019, 09:57:05 PM »
People are losing sight of the fact that the clock stoppage is to allow the retirement home chain crew workers to move, not to stop the clock until we can get the ball RFP. If it were the latter, the clock would stop on every single play until the RFP. I look forward to NFHS no longer stopping the clock on 1st downs to stay consistent with every other down.

Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #138 on: November 19, 2019, 05:50:33 AM »
People are losing sight of the fact that the clock stoppage is to allow the retirement home chain crew workers to move, not to stop the clock until we can get the ball RFP. If it were the latter, the clock would stop on every single play until the RFP. I look forward to NFHS no longer stopping the clock on 1st downs to stay consistent with every other down.

Incorrect - Both the NFHS and MIAA (Massachusetts) have posted written guidance that is very clear on this.  The clock is stopped to allow the R to clearly indicate that A has achieved a 1st down and is restarted by rule when the U has spotted the ball and it is actually RFP.  That same guidance also clearly states that the chain crew is not the basis for stopping or starting the clock and if needed to prevent undue delay in a hurry-up situation we can simply drop a bean bag at the new spot.  That guidance has also stated that the "off time" is expected to be in the 10-12 second range so that the RFP (the silent wind) is given before 25 seconds is reached on the 40 second play clock.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 07:41:24 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #139 on: November 19, 2019, 09:03:57 AM »
That's fine as long as we're winding the clock "3-5 seconds after the ball was spotted".  Still seeing some R's whose only delay is to give the 1st down signal and then immediately wind without ever looking toward the U.

While we are beating this dead horse to death, let me suggest that the "3-5 second interval after the ball is spotted" is usually more than enough time to allow the down box guy to set it down at the new spot. If it takes 8 seconds for the U to get it and spot it, that would be 11-15 seconds for the down box guy to get into position. Our experience has been much quicker than that.

Offline brettjr2005

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #140 on: November 19, 2019, 09:32:23 AM »
Incorrect - Both the NFHS and MIAA (Massachusetts) have posted written guidance that is very clear on this.  The clock is stopped to allow the R to clearly indicate that A has achieved a 1st down and is restarted by rule when the U has spotted the ball and it is actually RFP.  That same guidance also clearly states that the chain crew is not the basis for stopping or starting the clock and if needed to prevent undue delay in a hurry-up situation we can simply drop a bean bag at the new spot.  That guidance has also stated that the "off time" is expected to be in the 10-12 second range so that the RFP (the silent wind) is given before 25 seconds is reached on the 40 second play clock.
That's more of an explanation of how we're supposed to do it than a "why," imo. The only possible "why" there is to confirm and signal first down, in which case you could just point and immediately wind like others have suggested here and still accomplish that. I'm also aware of the bean bag, which is why I say don't stop the clock at all and just drop a bag if the chains are out for a Sunday stroll.

As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #141 on: November 19, 2019, 12:08:54 PM »
As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.

Calling audible attention to the RFP, is NOT a "make or break" point, but it has worked reasonably well, without any obvious drawbacks, for 100+years to avoid confusion, contention or potential argument about "announcing" the precise instant RFP happens, so EVERYONE (players coaches  & game officials) are notified at the same moment (regardless of where their immediate focus may have been diverted).

I was simply hoping YOU, or anybody else could express a meaningful benefit, improvement or purpose, created by specifically eliminating the audible confirmation. 

Sometimes, otherwise innocuous additional, "ounces of prevention" are more appropriate and helpful in avoiding unnecessary confusion, at different skill and maturity levels. Either way, we'll all eventually adjust and "the beat will go on".



Online NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #142 on: November 19, 2019, 03:56:11 PM »
As we can see by this 6 page and counting discussion, the only real point of contention left with this 25/40 change (other than Al's whistle desires) is when to wind for a first down. Remove the clock stoppage and you remove the contention.

Since when is a written directive directly from the rules source a point of contention?  The documents that are attached to my earlier post were available from the NFHS and MIAA websites respectively in early June, so not sure why apparently so few officials actually read them.

If we "don't like" the way we have been instructed to implement it based on the rules, then we can simply follow the procedures using the proper channels and request a rule(s) change, or alternately an updated guidance document.  That could include Al's request that we put the "audible RFP" back in?   ;D
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 03:59:36 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #143 on: November 19, 2019, 04:22:51 PM »
I think everybody except Al has adapted to this change and moved on. I haven’t heard of a problem with the lack of a whistle.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #144 on: November 19, 2019, 06:50:41 PM »
I think everybody except Al has adapted to this change and moved on. I haven’t heard of a problem with the lack of a whistle.

I've adapted and comfortably moved on, but the ACTUAL question has always been (and unfortunately remains) what, if anything, was gained, improved or simplified by removing that simple whistle to clarify to EVERYONE AT THE SAME MOMENT,  that the ball was again declared RFP.

Maybe "Change, purely for change sake" isn't really any better (practical, rational) than resisting change, "because we've always done it that way".

Offline refjeff

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #145 on: November 20, 2019, 06:49:49 AM »
If you read the NFHS Clock Operators instructions it repeatedly says the play clock shall start "immediately."   Immediately does not mean instantaneously, but it doesn't mean 3 seconds later either.  So I'm not real sure where that comes from. 

Like some others, I do not agree with the idea that we should cheat on time the whole game except in the last two minutes when coaches are paying attention to the clock and then we should go by the rules. 




Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #146 on: November 20, 2019, 06:54:19 AM »
I agree. The mechanic used in the first quarter should be the same mechanic used in the fourth whether the game is on the line or not.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #147 on: November 20, 2019, 07:11:06 AM »
With this thread in mind, I made it a point in my (mismatch) game last Friday to look at the play clock whenever I had a silent wind.  It was consistently at 30 seconds.

DISCLAIMER:  I was working with one of the best U’s in the state, and both teams had capable ball boys.

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #148 on: November 20, 2019, 07:32:17 AM »
If you read the NFHS Clock Operators instructions it repeatedly says the play clock shall start "immediately."   Immediately does not mean instantaneously, but it doesn't mean 3 seconds later either.  So I'm not real sure where that comes from. 

I love selective readers.  Each time the word immediately is used it is coupled with the term "40 second play clock".  Last time I checked that's not the same as the game clock.

"The Team A (offense) runner is stopped inbounds beyond the line-to-gain (first down). The game clock is stopped for the first down and the 40-second play clock is started immediately. The referee will then restart (wind) the game clock (no whistle involved) as quickly as the football is placed on the ground and ready for play."
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #149 on: November 20, 2019, 08:14:39 AM »
“This is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend...”
I’m still trying to find the problem this thread was intended to solve.

Seriously, the issue seems to revolve around the proper time to restart the game clock after a first down. Some say just as soon as possible, without regard for whether the ball is ready for play or not. I disagree with that. Some say just as soon as the umpire has set it down and moved away, and I agree that's the technical application of the rule. Others (myself included) seem to think the best mechanic is to wait until the down box is down. This may burn a couple of seconds, but to me making sure the LOS is established makes good sense. If we need to couple that with holding the U until that's accomplished, then I'm all for that. After all, there's nothing in the rules that say the R can't hold the U until he's sure the ball is ready for play, is there?

Regardless, I think it's a mountain/molehill issue. Practically speaking, there is at most a 2 second delay between the two actions we are contending about. I tried to pay closer attention Friday night to when the two actions happened, and found no discernible difference between the time the ball was down, the teams were ready, and the down box was set. If anybody has any horror stories about a train wreck in this case I would love to hear from you.

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« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 08:25:23 AM by CalhounLJ »