Author Topic: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.  (Read 10481 times)

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Offline HLTN

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2019, 07:58:30 AM »
In Tennessee, we wind as soon as the ball is set.  We don't wait for the down box or chains.
If the snap is imminent and the box isn't set, head linesmen are instructed to drop a bean bag at the spot.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2019, 08:25:00 AM »
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?

Offline scrounge

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2019, 08:31:00 AM »
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?

We have the same mechanic as a last resort in OH. Never once have I even come close to having to do this. If we had the 40 second clock in subvarsity with their much worse chain crews, I may have had to do so but thankfully we're not using the 40 second in those games.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2019, 09:50:11 AM »
We kill the clock when the first down is achieved,  we then signal 1st down after we've moved into an area where we should be visible to all, and following the 1st down signal wind the clock after the ball is down and RFP.  How can that be 3 consecutive motions where the "arm never stops"????????????
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline HLTN

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2019, 10:45:41 AM »
Just out of curiosity, have you had to drop a bean bag yet?

I've only seen it once.  Long run, late in the 2nd quarter, chain crew wasn't the fittest nor the most motivated.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2019, 11:03:46 AM »
That’s what I imagined. This is. Mountain/molehill stuff. There’s not enough difference between the two to even perceive the difference.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2019, 11:06:33 AM »
We kill the clock when the first down is achieved,  we then signal 1st down after we've moved into an area where we should be visible to all, and following the 1st down signal wind the clock after the ball is down and RFP.  How can that be 3 consecutive motions where the "arm never stops"????????????
For the record, as WH I’m nearly always visible to the all who matter. The three consecutive motions are stopping the clock, signaling first dow and the silent wind. Which can all be done within a span of 10 seconds, which is the normal time span to spot the ball and move the down box.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2019, 12:43:24 PM »
10 secs or so is fine, but I'm seeing some consistent under 5 with not even a glance at the U to see if the ball is down.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2019, 01:54:45 PM »
Just for the record, my question (concern) was NOT as much about when we declare the ball RFP, rather Why are we NOW being secretive about it?  For GENERATIONS we've clearly defined exactly when the RFP is declared, by the combination of a signal (either a wind, or snap) accompanied by a designating audible whistle.

The 40 second rule revision does seem effective in reducing "wasted" time, and the recommended mechanic of dropping a bean bag to mark the spot for the chains, when there's a delay in resetting the chains, seems a simple, practical way to avoid unnecessary delay.

Visibly and audibly consistently declaring an exact moment each time an RFP is established, has long proven to be a convenient, practical, way to alert ALL 22 players scattered across the playing field, 4,5,6 or 7 Game Officials and the entire Coaching staffs and Bench areas of both teams of the precise instant, that the status of the ball (becoming RFP) had changed, regardless of where anyone's attention may have wandered.

Bad mechanics habits are not going to be corrected by rule, any rule.  That requires habit correction, whether we're considering a 25 second, 40 second, or open ended clock procedure, and are best dealt with by specific, appropriate mechanics review, and where necessary remedial training.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2019, 02:03:58 PM »
Honestly, we have experienced 0 problems with either team understanding when the ball is ready for play.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2019, 03:27:09 PM »
Honestly, we have experienced 0 problems with either team understanding when the ball is ready for play.

We can continue "hoping" that trend will continue, or we could take a rather simple step to insure it does.

Offline VALJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2019, 09:45:42 AM »
Just for the record, my question (concern) was NOT as much about when we declare the ball RFP, rather Why are we NOW being secretive about it?  For GENERATIONS we've clearly defined exactly when the RFP is declared, by the combination of a signal (either a wind, or snap) accompanied by a designating audible whistle.

The 40 second rule revision does seem effective in reducing "wasted" time, and the recommended mechanic of dropping a bean bag to mark the spot for the chains, when there's a delay in resetting the chains, seems a simple, practical way to avoid unnecessary delay.

Visibly and audibly consistently declaring an exact moment each time an RFP is established, has long proven to be a convenient, practical, way to alert ALL 22 players scattered across the playing field, 4,5,6 or 7 Game Officials and the entire Coaching staffs and Bench areas of both teams of the precise instant, that the status of the ball (becoming RFP) had changed, regardless of where anyone's attention may have wandered.

Bad mechanics habits are not going to be corrected by rule, any rule.  That requires habit correction, whether we're considering a 25 second, 40 second, or open ended clock procedure, and are best dealt with by specific, appropriate mechanics review, and where necessary remedial training.

 deadhorse:

The umpire stepping away from the football seems pretty easy to recognize to me.  If he's standing there, they can't snap it.  If he's not, game on.

Heck, it even seems convenient and practical, too, since the guy snapping the ball is the one that the umpire is standing in front of.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2019, 10:12:44 AM »
My “block button” seems to be missing from this forum.


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Offline scrounge

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2019, 10:19:08 AM »
We can continue "hoping" that trend will continue, or we could take a rather simple step to insure it does.

You can keep yelling at a cloud, railing against a problem that simply has not come to pass, but the rest of the world has moved on.

Online js in sc

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2019, 10:20:25 AM »
I realize the confusion about when exactly is the ball ready for play.  I am curious about when, during this process, is the neutral zone established?  This is important in regards to a dead ball foul prior to establishing the neutral zone as it would reset the chains.  The rules state the neutral zone is "established when the ball is marked ready for play".  When, during all of this, does that happen? ???

Offline VALJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2019, 10:36:49 AM »
I realize the confusion about when exactly is the ball ready for play.  I am curious about when, during this process, is the neutral zone established?  This is important in regards to a dead ball foul prior to establishing the neutral zone as it would reset the chains.  The rules state the neutral zone is "established when the ball is marked ready for play".  When, during all of this, does that happen? ???

Per rule 3-6-1:
Quote

b. The ball is ready for play:

1. When the ball has been placed for a down and the referee marks the ball ready for play after giving the ready-for-play signal as in 3-6-1a(1);

2. Starting immediately after the ball has been ruled dead by a game official after a down, the ball has been placed on the ground by the game official and the game official has stepped away to position as in 3-6-1a(2).[/quote[

When the U steps away to his position, the ball is RFP, and the scrimmage lines are established.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2019, 11:46:58 AM »
One of our board member officials who now is a fulltime college official (almost exclusively Ivy League games) offered that he was given the explanation that the whistle for RFP is an indication that a 25 second play clock has just started and that the "no whistle wind" after a 1st down is intended to indicate that the play clock is already running, and that the ball is now ready for play.  That seems to make sense to me.

No whistle and the ball on the ground uncovered by an official, were RFP on a running 40 second play clock, an explicit whistle RFP the ball is now ready and were on a 25 second play clock that started on the whistle.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2019, 01:19:17 PM »
No whistle and the ball on the ground uncovered by an official, were RFP on a running 40 second play clock, an explicit whistle RFP the ball is now ready and were on a 25 second play clock that started on the whistle.

How does this improve a standard, universal (whistle with signal) as a means to alert players (& sidelines) that the ball has been specifically declared RFP, so EVERYONE (on both teams) is made aware of the change in status (of the ball) at the exact same moment, regardless of where their attention might be temporarily focused?

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2019, 02:52:22 PM »
How does this improve a standard, universal (whistle with signal) as a means to alert players (& sidelines) that the ball has been specifically declared RFP, so EVERYONE (on both teams) is made aware of the change in status (of the ball) at the exact same moment, regardless of where their attention might be temporarily focused?


Unless you want to snap the ball ASAP, the exact moment the ball becomes ready for play is not important to anyone. Ultimately the only one who needs to know the exact moment the game clock starts is the ECO. I agree it could be helpful at the end of a half if the U needs that extra second or two to get away because the offense wants to go immediately. Using the whistle allows him to do that before the RFP/game clock start. I do actually prefer the whistle any time the R is starting the game clock after a first down in bounds, but only because I selfishly like to know when he's done it if I'm not looking at him.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2019, 05:02:00 PM »
I do actually prefer the whistle any time the R is starting the game clock after a first down in bounds, but only because I selfishly like to know when he's done it if I'm not looking at him.

Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2019, 05:08:04 PM »
Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.
Seriously, have you called a game since the new rule change? You keep building these straw man arguments that I have not experienced in the 9 games I have called. You are worried about a problem that does not exist.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2019, 05:16:05 PM »
Seriously, have you called a game since the new rule change? You keep building these straw man arguments that I have not experienced in the 9 games I have called. You are worried about a problem that does not exist.

Seems almost the EXACT same logic as "making changes about universal practices that NEVER seemed to cause any problem."  Does this "change" eliminate, or correct a problem, or needlessly,  create potential ones?  Usually, changes are implemented for a specific reason, or  intended to provide a benefit, improvement or to reduce, or eliminate an existing problem.  I was just hoping for a logical reason.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 05:30:43 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2019, 05:20:36 PM »
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, “you know what, we need a whistle in this situation.” Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2019, 05:32:48 PM »
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, “you know what, we need a whistle in this situation.” Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.

Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2019, 05:33:36 PM »
When I said “everybody,” I meant everybody. Defense included.


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