Author Topic: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.  (Read 14102 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2019, 05:38:02 PM »
The teams I am familiar with are not coaches to get ready when they hear a whistle. They are coached to get ready when their opponents line up against them. The defense is ready long before the offense is. They donít need a whistle. And as far as ďall over the place, everybody on the defensive side of the ball is within 15-20 yds of the LOS and facing the offense. To be sure, a quick snap will not catch them unaware.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2019, 05:39:08 PM »
All I know is that it make the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between. If there are potential problems they are just that - potential. I have yet to think, ďyou know what, we need a whistle in this situation.Ē Everybody, including the two most important ppl (snapper and Qb) have had zero problem understanding when the ball is ready for play.


Really, eliminating a standard, consistent RFPwhistle, "make(s) the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between." Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?

I thought the whole idea behind a quick, or "hurry-up" offense was to catch the Defense off guard thereby gaining a distinct advantage.  Defensive adjustments are frequently dispersed from the sideline in whatever delay there might be prior to the RFP.  Why not let EVERYONE know, at the same time, when that is?
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 05:44:36 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2019, 05:43:04 PM »
The teams I am familiar with are not coaches to get ready when they hear a whistle. They are coached to get ready when their opponents line up against them. The defense is ready long before the offense is. They donít need a whistle. And as far as ďall over the place, everybody on the defensive side of the ball is within 15-20 yds of the LOS and facing the offense. To be sure, a quick snap will not catch them unaware.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Retweet


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline refjeff

  • *
  • Posts: 219
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-21
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2019, 05:50:02 PM »

Really, eliminating a standard, consistent RFPwhistle, "make(s) the game run smoother from start to finish and every down in between." Shouldn't the Defense (spread all over the place) enjoy the same opportunity?
  Players on the field were/are seldom cognizant of the RFP.  It had almost no bearing on what they were doing.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #79 on: November 07, 2019, 08:10:00 PM »

I thought the whole idea behind a quick, or "hurry-up" offense was to catch the Defense off guard thereby gaining a distinct advantage.  Defensive adjustments are frequently dispersed from the sideline in whatever delay there might be prior to the RFP.  Why not let EVERYONE know, at the same time, when that is?

Sorry, but I'm having trouble following your ?logic? here. Are you saying that the defense needs the whistle to know when to START dispersing adjustments? Or STOP dispersing adjustments? As to the delay prior to the ready for play, that's still built in to the process of getting the ball ready for play. It's determined by the speed and accuracy of the officials and has nothing to do with a whistle. We have been able to consistently get the ball ready for play within 10-12 seconds after the :40 starts. This consistency is what will help the defense "disperse" their adjustments in a timely manner. They can watch the clock, or the umpire, both, or neither. Once again, you have built a strawman defense for a problem that doesn't exist.

Offline HLinNC

  • *
  • Posts: 2540
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-13
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #80 on: November 07, 2019, 08:14:10 PM »
There is no logic here and continuing this debate will continue to devolve into the useless and mundane conversation on how football was better in the 50's.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #81 on: November 07, 2019, 09:52:00 PM »
There is no logic here and continuing this debate will continue to devolve into the useless and mundane conversation on how football was better in the 50's.

Actually, HLinNC, the discussion has little, if anything to do with "how football was played in the 50s", and a lot more to do with your inability to offer a cogent, or logical explanation for this largely innocuous change.  Evolution and change has been a pretty consistent, and positive path for the game of football, and will likely continue.

Hopefully those changes yet to come will result from serious thinking and solid reasoning capable of either improving the game or reducing problems creating unnecessary obstacles.  I'm still open to consider some logical, practical reason, or purpose justifying this adjustment.  Thus far I simply haven't heard one.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2019, 04:51:48 AM »
The problem is not that valid reasons have not been given, but that you refuse to accept the valid reasons offered. I get it. You have a problem with the lack of a whistle to indicate first down. Let me help you move on with one of Ralphís classics: ďAl, BY RULE, we are not required to give a whistle to indicate the RFP after a first down inbounds.Ē Thatís validation enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2019, 05:51:13 AM »
The problem is not that valid reasons have not been given, but that you refuse to accept the valid reasons offered. I get it. You have a problem with the lack of a whistle to indicate first down. Let me help you move on with one of Ralphís classics: ďAl, BY RULE, we are not required to give a whistle to indicate the RFP after a first down inbounds.Ē Thatís validation enough.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'll defer to Al here and will not agree that saying a rule change is beneficial simply because it's a rule change satisfactorily addresses the issue.  I've been in multiple games when the 1st down RFP "system" we're using now has been problematical.  That's a fact and is clear and obvious when one or both teams are running a hurry-up/no huddle offense.  Yes, the teams are getting it as the weeks move on, but we've still got some early snaps (before the silent wind) for "slower" R's and some quizzical looks back to the R from the same QB the next 1st down as he's wondering if the ball is ready yet.  The range of times I'm seeing vary from as little 4-5 seconds to 12-15 seconds (which is the ACTUAL timed delay from past years).  That IMHO is simply not workable or fair to an up tempo offense that from week to week is playing a game where the R's timing is different.   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 07:29:23 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline markrischard

  • *
  • Posts: 51
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2019, 07:49:44 AM »
I see some sub-varsity referees blowing ready-for-play whistles in 40 second play clock situations and feel that is poor mechanics.  We have a new rule, and a new mechanic.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2019, 07:50:30 AM »
.  The range of times I'm seeing vary from as little 4-5 seconds to 12-15 seconds (which is the ACTUAL timed delay from past years).  That IMHO is simply not workable or fair to an up tempo offense that from week to week is playing a game where the R's timing is different.
While this particular part is problematic, it has nothing to do with the whistle, but rather getting the ball RFP in a timely manner. Adding a whistle wouldnít fix this.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #86 on: November 08, 2019, 07:57:20 AM »
Yes, the teams are getting it as the weeks move on, but we've still got some early snaps (before the silent wind) for "slower" R's and some quizzical looks back to the R from the same QB the next 1st down as he's wondering if the ball is ready yet.
This problem is easily fixed in two ways. #1- to avoid early snaps have the U stand over the ball until everybody is ready. #2-talk to the QB in pregame and tell him the ball is ready to snap when the U steps away. We do this every week. No problems yet. Still no need for a whistle.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #87 on: November 08, 2019, 08:25:19 AM »
This problem is easily fixed in two ways. #1- to avoid early snaps have the U stand over the ball until everybody is ready. #2-talk to the QB in pregame and tell him the ball is ready to snap when the U steps away. We do this every week. No problems yet. Still no need for a whistle.

"Easily fixed", is much like "Beauty" alleged to be determined by, "(In) the eye of the beholder". Forgive me but neither of your solutions seems nearly as practical, convenient or effectively consistent as a simple, single audible whistle. 

What fuels your seemingly obstinate aversion to the continued (long, successful) application of our most recognized tool to continue identifying this universal, and simple, designation?   
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 08:34:17 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline PABJNR

  • *
  • Posts: 124
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-3
  • When a whistle stops a play it is inadvertent
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #88 on: November 08, 2019, 08:34:06 AM »
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.

Iíve had Teams snap the ball prior to the RFP the way we used to do it, I donít personally think a QB, when running hurry up late in a half or game was listening for a whistle, they were trying to get the ball snapped ASAP, what was the remedy then, have the U over the ball until the RFP.  The offense could immediately snap it as soon as it was blown. Now the U is in a bad spot as he is trying to back out.

The new rule states the ball is not RFP until U is in position which is much safer for the U.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You don't have to call everything you see...but you have to see everything you call!

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #89 on: November 08, 2019, 08:56:03 AM »
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.

Iíve had Teams snap the ball prior to the RFP the way we used to do it, I donít personally think a QB, when running hurry up late in a half or game was listening for a whistle, they were trying to get the ball snapped ASAP, what was the remedy then, have the U over the ball until the RFP.  The offense could immediately snap it as soon as it was blown. Now the U is in a bad spot as he is trying to back out.

The new rule states the ball is not RFP until U is in position which is much safer for the U.

Alright, now we're just going from the ridiculous to the sublime.  It's really NOT that big a deal, and most of us handle "adapting" even to silliness pretty well.

For the record, most (successful) Umpires learn to master the challenges of existing in the midst of traffic, early on.  The isolated solution, is
NOT about "have the U over the ball until the RFP", as much as simply expecting the R, paying attention enough, To hold his whistle until the U is safely away (which has worked pretty well for a long, long time.)

Resisting change for resistance sake, is usually a really dumb idea, but no worse than advocating change, for purely change sake, or just because someone else is doing it.  On the other hand, "Change" that is carefully thought through, and is intended to provide a specific and identifiable benefit or improvement, or reduce or eliminate a problem is usually a good thing.
















 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #90 on: November 08, 2019, 09:28:17 AM »
The problem was the whistle was not consistent, there were different paces by different crews. While some crews may be a little faster getting the ball RFP, the amount of time between plays is now consistent. Itís 40 seconds.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But the "problem" of the timing for the RFP has not changed one bit IMHO there are still different paces by different crews but now that's a bit invisible to the coaches, the players, the fans, and the common-taters since there is no whistle.  How did that improve anything?
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline Punter

  • *
  • Posts: 16
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #91 on: November 08, 2019, 09:48:22 AM »
When the game clock starts is immaterial.  The problem that was solved was the inconsistency of starting the play clock.  That is solved because the clock is set to 40 and starts after the previous play on a typical first down.  When the game clock starts really does not matter, but it should be started very quickly to keep the game moving along.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #92 on: November 08, 2019, 09:52:45 AM »
"Easily fixed", is much like "Beauty" alleged to be determined by, "(In) the eye of the beholder". Forgive me but neither of your solutions seems nearly as practical, convenient or effectively consistent as a simple, single audible whistle. 

What fuels your seemingly obstinate aversion to the continued (long, successful) application of our most recognized tool to continue identifying this universal, and simple, designation?
I could change a couple words and ask you the same question


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #93 on: November 08, 2019, 11:06:48 AM »
I could change a couple words and ask you the same question

I'd answer that all I was seeking was a logical reason, WHY, a simple, universally consistent means of effectively declaring the instant a significant change occurs in the readiness to play, that called attention to EVERYONE on both teams and game management that play would commence, at the same time (avoiding any sense of unilateral advantage) which had been successfully used for decades, would be changed to an alternative that is dependent on where each of 22 players may be focused, or temporarily distracted, and who may have a slightly different perspective of what they're looking for.

Sometimes, the quest for "One size fits all" simply doesn't apply to different levels of very similar applications, as anticipated or intended.

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1364
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-35
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #94 on: November 08, 2019, 11:18:33 AM »
I answered that we have given you and answer but you obstinately refuse to accept it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 152
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #95 on: November 08, 2019, 11:18:58 AM »
I'd answer that all I was seeking was a logical reason, WHY, a simple, universally consistent means of effectively declaring the instant a significant change occurs in the readiness to play, that called attention to EVERYONE on both teams and game management that play would commence, at the same time (avoiding any sense of unilateral advantage) which had been successfully used for decades, would be changed to an alternative that is dependent on where each of 22 players may be focused, or temporarily distracted, and who may have a slightly different perspective of what they're looking for.

Sometimes, the quest for "One size fits all" simply doesn't apply to different levels of very similar applications, as anticipated or intended.
I would agree "one size fits all" does not always apply.  The B team or JV high school player, and some varsity players, do not have the same skill level or situational awareness as the NCAA or NFL player.  Many times they are having a hard enough time figuring out what they should do and are not paying attention to the position of the umpire.  The whistle just gives the teams a signal that they can begin.  It also focuses everyone else's attention to the play starting without having to watch whether "bubba" has moved far enough away from the ball to start.

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-8
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #96 on: November 08, 2019, 12:26:18 PM »
Do you think that same, audible notification might be useful to the Defensive team, should one or more of them be temporarily/momentarily distracted focusing elsewhere? What the simple sounding of a whistle does is alert everyone the ball is RFP at the same instant, preventing any unintentional, unearned advantages/disadvantages. 

Doing so worked really well, for a very long time without creating any problems or unnecessary confusion.

No because it's happening while I'm still getting the ball and returning it to the spot. The rule states the game clock starts when the ball is ready for play but most Rs will get it rolling a little earlier to help keep the game moving (at least outside the last two minutes of a half in a tight game). If they do truly wait until the U steps away every time there is even less need for a whistle because you can see ball is now ready as the U steps away. But I don't think it hurts to have one either.

Offline Magician

  • *
  • Posts: 1066
  • FAN REACTION: +187/-8
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #97 on: November 08, 2019, 12:36:48 PM »
But the "problem" of the timing for the RFP has not changed one bit IMHO there are still different paces by different crews but now that's a bit invisible to the coaches, the players, the fans, and the common-taters since there is no whistle.  How did that improve anything?

The pace is probably more consistent but I agree there is still variability but that's because the actions after every play are different. What is consistent is how much time the offense has to snap the ball before they get a DOG. That is the primary intent of the 40-second play clock.

Someone pointed out there were times the ball was snapped before the R wound the game clock. That means the R wasn't ready for the pay yet so the U should not have stepped away. Too many people (somewhat due to poor communication from the NFHS) have this believe the goal is to get the ball down ASAP and the U step away as soon as it's placed. That was never the intent and wasn't part of our experiment which was the one that started this. You still go at the pace you should have been going (target RFP 12-15 seconds after dead ball). Sometimes the ball may be down well before that, but you don't step away until everyone is ready. That could be a little quicker than previously which is fine. But it's never been about how fast can the ball be placed and the U in position. I'm sorry so many of you were mislead on this by NFHS and  your local interpreter.

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3828
  • FAN REACTION: +291/-590
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #98 on: November 08, 2019, 01:51:44 PM »
I answered that we have given you and answer but you obstinately refuse to accept it.

Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.     

Offline NVFOA_Ump

  • *
  • Posts: 3295
  • FAN REACTION: +76/-111
  • High School (MA & RI)
    • Massachusetts Independent Football Officials Association
Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #99 on: November 08, 2019, 02:07:29 PM »
When the game clock starts is immaterial.  The problem that was solved was the inconsistency of starting the play clock.  That is solved because the clock is set to 40 and starts after the previous play on a typical first down.  When the game clock starts really does not matter, but it should be started very quickly to keep the game moving along.

it should be started when we're ready and the ball is actually ready for play that's what the rules require.  How does that not matter?  And "very quickly"?  "Saving" 4-5 seconds with a bogus 1st down wind saves a massive total of 1-2 minutes per game.  Who is playing the game, us or the two teams?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 02:10:58 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel