Author Topic: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.  (Read 14094 times)

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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« on: October 26, 2019, 07:03:37 AM »
1.  Would you wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds before the ball is back on the ground and ready for play in:

a.  1st quarter, no score
b.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 18 point differential
c.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 3 point differential
d.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 18 point differential
e.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 1 score game
f.  4th quarter, 2 minutes remaining, 1 score game

2.  Would you always wait to wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds until both the box is set and the ball is on the ground and ready for play?


« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 07:11:39 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2019, 07:33:29 AM »
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2019, 08:26:12 AM »
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above

Agree.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2019, 10:56:31 AM »
So we are winding, even late in the 2nd or 4th quarter regardless of the score differential, as soon as the box is in, regardless of the actual location of the ball (ie: ball not down and ready) when we wind?
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2019, 12:17:38 PM »
Yes. Thatís supposed to be the reason for the :40, right? To provide consistency from play to play. If Iím doing it in the first quarter Iím not changing in the 4th. Everybody should be used to it by then.


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Offline refjeff

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2019, 12:36:10 PM »
Ohio must be using different mechanics.  I'm winding when the ball is set and the U steps away.  We do not wait for the down box.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 07:06:30 PM by refjeff »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 06:38:16 AM »
Yes. Thatís supposed to be the reason for the :40, right? To provide consistency from play to play. If Iím doing it in the first quarter Iím not changing in the 4th. Everybody should be used to it by then.
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Actually no, the "new 40" and the winding the game clock are in no way connected.  The "silent wind" (read Ready For Play) has not changed this year except for the fact that it's now silent.  IMHO the mechanics are the same as they have always been:

1.  Ball is actually down and
2.  U has moved away (indicating he's checked and crew is ready) and
3.  Box is down (or alternately if accepted in your area a bag is down to mark spot for the box)

While certainly this can be "flexed" based on time in game and score of game winding before the ball is actually ready when a game where seconds can/do impact the result is incorrect and not based on any guidelines that I have seen.  Have seen too many R's doing this like it's some kind of fixed time mechanic without any attention being paid to where the ball and the U are.  The Ready For Play should actually be the Ready For Play.  IMHO we should not be winding when A is in formation at the line in hurry up and the ball is not actually RFP.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2019, 07:30:29 AM »
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play. The silent wind is employed immediately after a new series is awarded to A after a first down inbounds. The ball is ready for play when the U sets it down and moves away. Due to the :40, neither the game clock or the play clock is dependent on this. FWIW, it not been a problem for us because in every case, the ball has been down by the time the down box has been set.

In either case, Iím not changing the pace according to the game situation. What I do in the first quarter is what I do in the fourth. Thatís what I meant by consistency. All this has been discussed and approved by our assignor.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2019, 10:21:28 AM »
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play. The silent wind is employed immediately after a new series is awarded to A after a first down inbounds. The ball is ready for play when the U sets it down and moves away. Due to the :40, neither the game clock or the play clock is dependent on this. FWIW, it not been a problem for us because in every case, the ball has been down by the time the down box has been set.

In either case, Iím not changing the pace according to the game situation. What I do in the first quarter is what I do in the fourth. Thatís what I meant by consistency. All this has been discussed and approved by our assignor.


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Maybe you didn't read the original question correctly?  The question was would you wind the clock BEFORE the ball is actually ready for play?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 10:23:16 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2019, 12:18:28 PM »
No I read the question. Maybe you didnít understand the answer. Yes. I will wind the clock in a first down inbounds when the down box is set.

Also note in my previous reply Iíve experienced no problems with this as in the vast majority, if not all situations, the ball is down and ready by the time the down box is set.

What Iím not going to do is vary the timing of the silent wind according to the game situation. That would be unfair to one of the teams. If that was not the implication of the various situations you posted, then maybe I did misread the post.

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« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 12:22:11 PM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2019, 12:29:38 PM »
Hereís my progression on a 12yd run for a first down:
1. Ball is dead, check with my L. If heís signaling stop the clock and giving me the first down signal, Iím mirroring him. Iíll stop the clock, signal first down.
2. Check the down box guy. Iím watching him move while my U spots the ball or works another one in. As. Soon as the stick is down at the succeeding spot, I give the silent wind.
3. By this time the U has the ball down and is either moving to his position because A is not pressing, or is waiting on me.
4. If heís waiting on me, I send him back and we move in.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2019, 12:54:59 PM »
The problem is your interpretation of ďsilent windĒ is incorrect. The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

Following some serious skepticism about converting to a "40 second Play Clock", actual experience to the procedure suggest my concerns may well have been, "Much ado, about nothing", although 1 doubting question remains.

Why, did we make the RFP signal "silent"?  Arguably, a confirming whistle, by the Referee DESIGNATED an exact moment the ball was RFP (eliminating ANY NEED for interpretation, confusion or doubt.  A procedure that seemed to have worked exceptionally well for 100, or so years.

The current procedure, as evidenced by answers to this list of comments, is NOW subject to interpretation (which by it's essence creates potential difference (confusion, doubt, disagreement) and is dependent on whether ALL involved parties were actually LOOKING at the Umpire/Referee (Depending on the interpretation being followed) as opposed to a CONSISTENT Referee's whistle, which EVERYBODY INSTANTLY UNDERSTOOD.

CLEARLY, the existing process was NOT broken and UNIVERSALLY understood and accepted,  Why on earth was it changed?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 12:57:27 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 12:58:02 PM »
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 02:16:00 PM »
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.

Believe it, or not, I DO UNDERSTAND," The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play." AS WELL AS, "The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.". 

My suggestion was simply inferring that the way it was previously done:
 
(The Referee DECLARING the ball was RFP (while confirming whether the Game Clock was to restart on the RFP or Snap, was absolutely consistent (also helpful and confirming to the Game Clock Operator).

DECLARING the EXACT moment of the RFP (eliminating the need for INTERPRETATION, confusion or doubt), which had been UNIVERSALLY RECOGNIZED as such for 100, or so, years without a lot of consternation.

Unfortunately, I currently fail to appreciate the need for changing (an unbroken, universally understood signal) in favor of an apparently interpretive movement by a game official (Umpire) who may well not be visible to all players, and was hoping for some logical enlightenment and/or practical justification, to help ally my concerns.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 02:22:21 PM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 02:21:03 PM »

Why, did we make the RFP signal "silent"?
Ok sorry. I was confused by this question after you quoted my post concerning the ďsilent wind.Ē


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Offline SCline

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2019, 10:07:35 PM »
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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I hate to quibble but this is incorrect, the silent wind is meant to indicate when the GCO shall start the clock in accordance with 3-4-2a. 3-4-2a says that the GC shall start with the ready for play which is only after it has been placed down (3-6-1b both 1 and 2).

Starting the game clock before the ball has been ďplaced for a downĒ is incorrect.



Regarding the original post I would answer yes to question 2
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 10:09:20 PM by SCline »

Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2019, 10:30:26 PM »
1.  Would you wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds before the ball is back on the ground and ready for play in:

a.  1st quarter, no score
b.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 18 point differential
c.  2nd quarter, 2 minutes in half, 3 point differential
d.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 18 point differential
e.  4th quarter, 8 minutes remaining, 1 score game
f.  4th quarter, 2 minutes remaining, 1 score game

2.  Would you always wait to wind the clock following a team A 1st down inbounds until both the box is set and the ball is on the ground and ready for play?
For question 1, in all scenarios the answer would be no, because the game clock does not restart until the ball is ready for play, whether under 2018 NFHS rules with a 25-second play clock for all scenarios, or under the current 40/25 second play clock rules. For question 2, I would wait until the ball is on the ground, because the box can always be set at its new position by the H (or L, in states that switch sides at halftime) with a bean bag, and the game clock starts when the ball is ready for play, so ready for play trumps the presence or absence of the box as a consideration for starting the game clock. If the delay is long enough that the play clock is under 25 before the box arrives, I would stop the game and play clocks, reset the play clock to 25, and start both clocks with the traditional ready-for-play signal.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2019, 05:20:12 AM »
The silent wide has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.
The silent wind has nothing to do with the ready for play.

The silent wind signals the game clock to restart after a new series has been awarded.

The ready for play signal is the U moving to his position after the ball is down.


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Sorry, but that is flat out 100% incorrect by rule.  The ready for play by rule must be when the BALL IS ACTUALLY READY FOR PLAY.  If you are saying that your "checklist" goes in a different order and the ball is always ready by the time you wind that's fine, but the game clock should/must not be wound after an official administrative stoppage if in fact the ball is not actually RFP.
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2019, 06:07:42 AM »
Well, Iíve been misled by my college friends then.
Follow Up on 40/25 Concerns
 https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/topic?share_fid=2083325&share_tid=14692&share_pid=149396&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Erefstripes%2Ecom%2Fforum%2Findex%2Ephp%3Ftopic%3D14692%2Emsg149396%23msg149396&share_type=t&link_source=app
Posts like this and personal conversations with college WHs led me to believe the only reason to stop the clock was to award a first down, followed immediately by the silent wind, regardless of whether the ball was RFP.  The game clock guidelines imply this stoppage is not even considered administrative.

4. There is no signal/whistle from the referee during the 40 seconds except to restart the game clock following a first down inbounds. It is important to note that none of the situations listed above involve an administrative stop/interruption in play. All of those possibilities are addressed in the next section.


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2019, 07:17:32 AM »
I went back and watched a tape of one of my games from earlier this year.  Apparently my subconscious ďprocessĒ following a first down inbounds is to see the ball placed down before even looking toward the box and giving the silent wind.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2019, 08:06:05 AM »
I wind the ball when the down box is set. In all situations above.


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You guys are wasting valuable opportunities to shave time off of your game.  Wind as soon as you can, even before the ball is set, unless it's a team doing a 2 minute drill.  Then, wait until they are set and the U has started to back out.  Don't wait for the box!

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2019, 08:29:36 AM »
Iíll pass this along to my assignor. He has instructed us to do it the way Iím doing it. Still, I havenít noticed a measurable difference.


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Offline TampaSteve

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2019, 09:22:05 AM »
You guys are wasting valuable opportunities to shave time off of your game.  Wind as soon as you can, even before the ball is set, unless it's a team doing a 2 minute drill.  Then, wait until they are set and the U has started to back out.  Don't wait for the box!
what he said.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2019, 02:51:06 PM »
Iíll pass this along to my assignor. He has instructed us to do it the way Iím doing it. Still, I havenít noticed a measurable difference.
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Acknowledge that the difference is small, but when a team is running a no-huddle and the clock is being wound before the ball is ready for play, it's a bad visual.  Especially so when you realize that we're stretching the rules when we are doing that.  The original post came from watching some videos online of a NFHS game and the R was simply walking up to exactly 5 yards from the new box yard line, signaling 1st down and immediately winding without ever even looking toward the box or the U.  Consistent 100% of the time but the visual when team A is at the line waiting for a ball to be placed and the clock is already running is not good.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 03:16:15 PM by NVFOA_Ump »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2019, 03:41:58 PM »
Acknowledge that the difference is small, but when a team is running a no-huddle and the clock is being wound before the ball is ready for play, it's a bad visual.  Especially so when you realize that we're stretching the rules when we are doing that.  The original post came from watching some videos online of a NFHS game and the R was simply walking up to exactly 5 yards from the new box yard line, signaling 1st down and immediately winding without ever even looking toward the box or the U.  Consistent 100% of the time but the visual when team A is at the line waiting for a ball to be placed and the clock is already running is not good.
Understand completely. Thanks for pointing this out.


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