Author Topic: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.  (Read 4397 times)

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Offline scrounge

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #100 on: November 08, 2019, 04:54:37 PM »
Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.   


I think this is where the kids would say "Ok, boomer"

Offline refjeff

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #101 on: November 08, 2019, 10:01:40 PM »
I see some sub-varsity referees blowing ready-for-play whistles in 40 second play clock situations and feel that is poor mechanics.  We have a new rule, and a new mechanic.
Ohio is still using the 25 second RFP in all sub-varsity games.

1.  I'm pretty sure most coaches are not aware of this.

2.  It causes mistakes by the R going back-and-forth between the two systems.  Nothing major, just irritating.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #102 on: November 08, 2019, 10:55:08 PM »

I think this is where the kids would say "Ok, boomer"

That may just be because they couldn't think of anything worthwhile to add to the discussion.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2019, 06:18:31 AM »
Pots and kettles


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Offline VALJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2019, 01:39:30 PM »
Al isn’t going to be happy with any answer we give him.  Everyone else in this thread isn’t going to be happy with Al not being happy with him not being happy with any answer.  In 48 states, the answer to the question “why did we change the way we indicate the RFP?” is “because that’s how we were told to do it.“ (Upon a moment’s reflection, it’s probably 49 states, actually.)

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.

We’ve got three pages that amount to nothing more than  deadhorse: 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2019, 01:41:19 PM by VALJ »

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2019, 10:32:41 PM »

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.


Geesh VALJ - what did I ever do to you??!!

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #106 on: November 10, 2019, 07:20:48 AM »
Al isn’t going to be happy with any answer we give him.  Everyone else in this thread isn’t going to be happy with Al not being happy with him not being happy with any answer.  In 48 states, the answer to the question “why did we change the way we indicate the RFP?” is “because that’s how we were told to do it.“ (Upon a moment’s reflection, it’s probably 49 states, actually.)

In New York, I humbly suggest to Al that this question would best be directed to the state interpreter.  What the other 48 states under Fed code have to say has no impact on what New York officials are told to do.

We’ve got three pages that amount to nothing more than  deadhorse:

I'm really sorry to pester you VALJ, I just didn't see the necessity for the change, and thought someone (so much smarter) could explain it to me.  I was hoping for something just a little more explanatory than, "Because, I told you so", but I understand FULLY, and have long accepted that we enforce the rules, that OTHERS decide.

I actually feel for the poor dead horse, and wish someone could offer a practical, simple reason other than "Shut up and do as your told", which I don't have a serious problem with, and have done so, many times before.  Just thought someone might explain why.  I guess you're not the one, no surprise, and not a big deal.

I've learned that understanding, WHY a rule was made(added/changed) was the BEST way to remember consistently enforcing it, and/or explaining it when questioned about it.  It really saves a lot of empty guessing, and bluffing when asked.  You should try it sometime. 

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #107 on: November 10, 2019, 09:29:57 AM »
Just a thought, but JUST MAYBE your answer, and those provided, weren't as clear, as convincing, persuading, as clearly explained or as potentially consistently deliverable as you intended, require or thought them to be.  Considering all the variables that have to line up (ball boys skills, LTG Chain movement, substitutions by either/both teams, unique unanticipated situations) does it sound reasonable that a finite, consistently recognizable declaration of the RFP might reduce the possibility of inconsistent, unanticipated confusion, better than expecting 22 teenagers to be consistently focusing, and interpreting the same specific behavior of the Umpire, many won't be anywhere near?

Blowing a whistle to affirm something  important just happened, seems a far more prudent, positive, inexpensive precaution to minimize unanticipated confusion than presuming EVERYBODY will ALWAYS be properly focused on exactly where they are supposed to be concentrating, at the right time.     

It seems to be clear, convincing, persuasive to almost everyone else but you. If you are resistant to the new rule you will be very resistant to suggestions to change. I get that. But your failure to recognize these explanations is clouded by this predisposition.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #108 on: November 10, 2019, 01:05:32 PM »
It seems to be clear, convincing, persuasive to almost everyone else but you. If you are resistant to the new rule you will be very resistant to suggestions to change. I get that. But your failure to recognize these explanations is clouded by this predisposition.

I'd really prefer allowing this long dead horse rest in peace.  The question HASN"T been about the rule, that's been "clear" from it's announcement. It was about the reason (logic) for changing the RFP signal from audible (whistle) to silent.  I don't recall, in any of these responses, any effort, much less actual reason, to try and suggest a reason, benefit, logic or explanation for why THAT change was incorporated.

I don't consider myself resistant to any new (or changed) rule, but when I understand WHY the specific change was included, it makes accepting it, and where necessary explaining it, if/when questioned about it, that much easier.  If you have NOTHING to offer, fine, if that's all you have, it is what it is.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #109 on: November 10, 2019, 01:30:08 PM »
Here’s a great reason for the :40 and the lack of a whistle after a first down:

 “Ensures a consistent interval between plays independent of officials’ making the ball ready for play and referees’ intervals for blowing RFP. Teams will not need to adapt their pace to different officiating crews”


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #110 on: November 10, 2019, 02:38:48 PM »
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows it’s a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if it’s a 40 or 25.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #111 on: November 10, 2019, 03:25:26 PM »
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows it’s a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if it’s a 40 or 25.


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This is another great, logical reason.


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Offline refjeff

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #112 on: November 10, 2019, 06:26:17 PM »
 The only player on O that pays any any attention to the play clock is the QB, and he doesn't care if it's 25 or 40.

Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 09:41:43 PM by refjeff »

Offline PABJNR

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #113 on: November 10, 2019, 07:04:07 PM »
Give 25 once instead of 40 and let me know how that goes.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #114 on: November 11, 2019, 09:08:32 AM »
Here’s a great reason for the :40 and the lack of a whistle after a first down:

 “Ensures a consistent interval between plays independent of officials’ making the ball ready for play and referees’ intervals for blowing RFP. Teams will not need to adapt their pace to different officiating crews”


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Except that multiple posters on this thread are advocates of the "shave a few seconds when it doesn't matter" party and then keeping the "consistent interval between plays" means we're shaving when it does matter.  Have seen this twice in the last three weeks in games where the winning team in a 2 point game is kneeling on 3rd down to end the game and the R has been shaving all game long. But, he was very careful to "ensure a consistent interval between plays".  Sorry, but were out there to officiate a game between 2 teams, not to insert ourselves into the game by making the overall duration of the game 5-10 minutes shorter.
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Offline ilyazhito

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #115 on: November 11, 2019, 10:06:32 AM »
That is why I advocate following the rule as written and wait for the ball to be spotted before the game clock starts. Maybe it is just me being autistic, but I would rather follow the rule, and be supported in a difficult situation, than follow a cowboy interpretation of said rule that might land me in hot water if things go sideways.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2019, 10:46:46 AM »
I believe someone noted previously that the reasoning is when there is no whistle is so the O knows it’s a 40 with no whistle if and when they hear a whistle they know 25. If you blow a whistle every time with no visible clicks there would be confusion as to if it’s a 40 or 25.

Perhaps, I haven't stated my concerns clearly, allow me to try again.  I'm not suggesting whistles are necessary at "40 seconds", that event seems clear enough on it's own (a previous play ends inbounds, a pass or kick ends in/or OOB).  Thereafter we have provided a consistent alert (Referee's whistle) when the shorter 25 second RFP interval began, which momentarily provided a notice that alerted EVERYONE to a specific reduced time interval.

The current alert, to reaching that reduced time interval, is set by who may be watching the movements of the Umpire and the placement of the ball, which may often conflict with, or be distracted by, Coaching instructions, player discussions or other distractions, that were previously overcome by a specific, and unique audible Referee RFP whistle.

Despite DECADES of availability, only a percentage (far short of universal) of playing fields (servicing INTERSCHOLASTIC SPORTS) include visible 25 second play clocks, and there is NO assurance that the installation and/or conversion to add 40 second play clock capabilities will happen any faster.  As with the adoption of 25 second  field play clocks, manual signals being adopted by field officials are suggested to help with recognition, until the availability of visible 40 second clocks become universal, which considering the deployment history of 25 second clocks, may likely take DECADES.

At the NCAA and NFL levels, where the 40 second interval was initiated, the presence of visible play clocks supporting that process  is ESSENTIALLY UNIVERSAL.

Presuming there still may be a practical value to INSURING everybody on both teams is (gently) reminded that the ball has been rendered RFP, continuing the ages old practice of a "Referee's whistle" seemed logical and universally consistent (at least until visible play clocks and/or some new technology rendering them unnecessary replaces them).

   
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 10:49:01 AM by AlUpstateNY »

Offline VALJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2019, 10:49:01 AM »
 deadhorse:

Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2019, 03:14:46 PM »
Except that multiple posters on this thread are advocates of the "shave a few seconds when it doesn't matter" party and then keeping the "consistent interval between plays" means we're shaving when it does matter.  Have seen this twice in the last three weeks in games where the winning team in a 2 point game is kneeling on 3rd down to end the game and the R has been shaving all game long. But, he was very careful to "ensure a consistent interval between plays".  Sorry, but were out there to officiate a game between 2 teams, not to insert ourselves into the game by making the overall duration of the game 5-10 minutes shorter.

The consistent interval is from dead ball to DOG and not dead ball to RFP. The latter probably also happens to improve with the 40-second clock but there will always be variability like there was before. But it doesn't matter if the ball was ready at 34 or 25, the offense still has 40 seconds from the previous play to snap before they get a DOG. That's why all this crazy running around to get the ball spotted ASAP and step away immediately doesn't fit with the intent. Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2019, 03:31:27 PM »
deadhorse:
Agree. This is my last post on this topic. Originally I was against all things :40. Now I’m for all things :40. I don’t care why.


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Offline refjeff

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2019, 09:42:56 PM »
Give 25 once instead of 40 and let me know how that goes.


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Actually we put 25 on the clock multiple times every game.  Hasn't been a problem so far.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2019, 09:02:17 AM by refjeff »

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #121 on: November 12, 2019, 07:38:01 AM »
The consistent interval is from dead ball to DOG and not dead ball to RFP. The latter probably also happens to improve with the 40-second clock but there will always be variability like there was before. But it doesn't matter if the ball was ready at 34 or 25, the offense still has 40 seconds from the previous play to snap before they get a DOG. That's why all this crazy running around to get the ball spotted ASAP and step away immediately doesn't fit with the intent. Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it.

Yes, let's do just that, following a 1st down inbounds "Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it."  Then, as the rules state we're RFP and we can then wind the game clock.  And let's be efficient and consistent in doing that so both teams know exactly what to expect at all times during the game.
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Offline Magician

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #122 on: November 13, 2019, 10:26:56 AM »
Yes, let's do just that, following a 1st down inbounds "Be efficient in spotting it and stepping away but don't rush it."  Then, as the rules state we're RFP and we can then wind the game clock.  And let's be efficient and consistent in doing that so both teams know exactly what to expect at all times during the game.

That's what we do with the exception of starting the game clock a little quicker if time isn't critical. It's a very commonly accepted practice at every level now. It doesn't affect the teams at all as they aren't paying attention to the game clock at that point. They just need to know when the ball is ready for play and they can see that by the U stepping away. The game clock starts at the snap without a whistle as well. The only one possibly affected by the lack of a whistle is a game clock operator not paying attention to the R. Our R occasionally wears out his rotator cuff starting the game clock when the ECO isn't paying attention.

Maybe we have found the source of the concern here. Alf has probably missed several starts of the game clock because he's conditioned to do it from the whistle. It has no impact whatsoever on the coaches or players.

Offline markrischard

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #123 on: November 13, 2019, 12:10:44 PM »
That is why I advocate following the rule as written and wait for the ball to be spotted before the game clock starts. Maybe it is just me being autistic, but I would rather follow the rule, and be supported in a difficult situation, than follow a cowboy interpretation of said rule that might land me in hot water if things go sideways.
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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Winding the Clock after a First Down Gained.
« Reply #124 on: November 13, 2019, 01:54:58 PM »
That's what we do with the exception of starting the game clock a little quicker if time isn't critical. It's a very commonly accepted practice at every level now. It doesn't affect the teams at all as they aren't paying attention to the game clock at that point. They just need to know when the ball is ready for play and they can see that by the U stepping away. The game clock starts at the snap without a whistle as well. The only one possibly affected by the lack of a whistle is a game clock operator not paying attention to the R. Our R occasionally wears out his rotator cuff starting the game clock when the ECO isn't paying attention.

Maybe we have found the source of the concern here. Alf has probably missed several starts of the game clock because he's conditioned to do it from the whistle. It has no impact whatsoever on the coaches or players.

Except as we get into the 2nd half of the 2nd and 4th quarters, not just the last 2 minutes, it almost always impacts 1 team more than the other.  Just follow the rule, it's pretty simple.  Ball on the ground, U back, it's RFP, wind the clock.
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