Author Topic: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...  (Read 880 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Eromlignod

  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« on: November 13, 2019, 11:11:22 AM »
Gentlemen:

Just a simple ball-spot question that perplexes me...

Is it the tip, the side or the center of the ball that is used to spot the ball? In the case of a touchdown it seems that if the tip crosses the goal plane, it's a touchdown. But if the ball crosses the plane sideways, then it's the side of the ball that decides it...a difference of two inches (the tips of the ball protrude 2" longer).

OK, but when the chains are invoked to measure a first down, the ball is always oriented point-forward, regardless of what orientation the ball had when the player was down.

There seems to be an inconsistency. For a touchdown there is an advantage to orienting the ball point-forward, but for a first down, the extra two inches is automatically added anyway. Am I misunderstanding the rule?

Don
Kansas City

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 782
  • FAN REACTION: +41/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2019, 11:24:30 AM »
You're overthinking it.

If the ball is sideways, then the foremost part of the ball is the side of the ball -- when you rotate the ball to mark it ready, you don't rotate about the center of mass, you rotate it so that the foremost point of the ball is still at the same spot the foremost point of the ball was at. This means that the center of mass of the ball moves *backwards* slightly so that the tip of the ball is now at the same spot the side of the ball was at previously.

The important spot is the foremost point on the ball, no matter how it is oriented.

Offline Eromlignod

  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2019, 12:29:52 PM »
Well, that makes sense for the first downs if you consider the spot to always be the foremost point of the ball.

But there is still a difference on a touchdown. If the tip of the ball is spotted right on the one-yard line (tip of the ball forward in the center's hands), then its center has to be advanced one yard (36 inches) for the tip to reach the goal plane for a touchdown. But if a player carries the ball sideways, its center will have to be advanced 38", or two more inches to make up for the tip.

It seems that there's a disrcepancy.

Don

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 782
  • FAN REACTION: +41/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2019, 01:31:01 PM »
Again, you're just overthinking it.

Fundamentally, at the snap, the ball must move backwards from the snapper to the back receiving the snap. This back is minimally at the 2 -- now he has to take the ball 72" forward to score, despite the ball being snapped from the 1.

Secondly, you could rotate the ball in such a manner that the foremost point of the ball doesn't change -- moving the center of mass forward those two inches and then the ball is still the same distance from the goal line.

Online js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 147
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-3
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2019, 01:52:55 PM »
Well, that makes sense for the first downs if you consider the spot to always be the foremost point of the ball.

But there is still a difference on a touchdown. If the tip of the ball is spotted right on the one-yard line (tip of the ball forward in the center's hands), then its center has to be advanced one yard (36 inches) for the tip to reach the goal plane for a touchdown. But if a player carries the ball sideways, its center will have to be advanced 38", or two more inches to make up for the tip.

It seems that there's a disrcepancy.

Don
As my old mentor says, "stop trying to pick the fly droppings out of the pepper".  Don't they say football is a game of inches?

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 3250
  • FAN REACTION: +412/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2019, 01:54:35 PM »
Hi, Don, welcome to the forum. May you find it both enjoyable and informative. Helpful hints that may help.....

If any part of the ball going into the end zone breaks its plane = TD.

If any part of the ball going out of the end zone is still breaking its plane = touchback or safety.

If the ball going out of the end zone is completely out and at an angle where moving it point to point would cause the back point to break the end zone plane = adjust the ball so back point isn't breaking end zone = (legal cheating - Case 5.3.4A)

If play ends close to a 1st down WITHOUT its long axis  parallel to sidelines. As chains  come in, R should  mark the foremost part of the ball with his hat. Rotate ball ,using his hat to rotate the ball ,remove his hat and measure. This enables all to  see that the ball hasn't been advanced, just adjusted. (5.3.2A).

If there is an incomplete pass on 4th down, have the down marker guy (gender neutral) move the marker by the length of the football as what used to head of the ball is now its tail.   
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 11:32:40 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Eromlignod

  • *
  • Posts: 3
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2019, 02:10:58 PM »
Interesting. So for a first down, you can get the benefit of two more inches for a sideways ball spot, but on a touchdown you don't and the foremost part of the ball must pierce the plane, regardless of ball orientation.  The rest of the time a play is measured from foremost point to foremost point, planting the ball with its tip forward on the current line.

Don

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-33
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2019, 02:32:28 PM »
Iíll tell you how to make sense of it. Put a football up against the wall in your house. First put it against the wall sideways, the rotate it to where a point is against the wall. Thatís what is supposed to happened. The foremost ďpointĒ of the ball is the part that is touching the wall. Makes no difference if itís an actual ďpointĒ or a rounded side.

When/if the ball becomes dead in the field of play the foremost part is the part (side or point) closest the goal. If itís a side, the ball is simply repositioned to where the point of the ball is at the foremost location of the side when the ball became dead.

RE: ball in possession, itís the same way. If the runner is carrying the ball sideways, the foremost point is the side of the ball. If heís carrying it longways, itís the point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1285
  • FAN REACTION: +79/-71
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2019, 04:44:19 PM »
Interesting. So for a first down, you can get the benefit of two more inches for a sideways ball spot, but on a touchdown you don't and the foremost part of the ball must pierce the plane, regardless of ball orientation.  The rest of the time a play is measured from foremost point to foremost point, planting the ball with its tip forward on the current line.

Don

You appear to be hung up on thinking the tip of the ball is the point that is used to determine forward progress.  Not at all true.  It could be - if it happens to be the part of the ball that is nearest to opponent's goal line when the ball is declared dead.  Instead of thinking of the ball, think of a vertical (geometrical) plane that is pushed forward by the offense, or backward by the defense, but the entire ball is on the offensive side of that plane at all times (and the plane is always touching the ball), regardless of its orientation.  Progress is determined by that plane, not by the orientation of the ball.  So, when the ball becomes dead, since, by rule, it must have its long axis parallel to the sidelines when the snap begins, it is rotated to get the long axis of the ball perpendicular to the progress plane. Nothing has changed about the progress plane - it is still where it was when the ball became dead. Since the ball remains the same during the game (at least we hope it does), neither team gets an advantage or benefit that the other team doesn't get.

And don't forget that the ball has mass, which is why we have two lines of scrimmage on every scrimmage down - the front end of the ball for Team B, and the back end of the ball for Team A.  The game is both teams attempting to move the three-dimensional ball back and forth between the goal lines  When the ball becomes dead 6" from B's goal line after 4th down, it is spotted with the B point of the ball 6" from the goal line - long axis parallel to the sidelines - and then the chains and down marker are set on the A end of the ball, 1st and 10 for B.  Same after an incomplete pass on 4th down.  The ball is spotted back exactly as it was to begin 4th down, then the chains and down marker are moved to the opposite (A) end of the ball, 1st and 10 for B.  (Don't simply flip the ball over with the down marker in the same location). 
The ONLY exception to any of this is when the ball carrier is tackled at his own goal line, with the ball in the field of play, but sideways and just a couple of inches away from the goal line.  If you were to rotate the ball from the true progress plane, the back end of the ball would likely be over the goal line.  We aren't going to award a safety when no part of the ball was breaking the plane of the defending team's goal line when it became dead.  We just move the ball out a bit, with the back tip that same few inches from the goal line.

Simple. 

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2925
  • FAN REACTION: +103/-34
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2019, 12:03:47 AM »
And one more attempt at clarifying this.

First and 10 at A-30. Ball carrier A31 advances to about A-40 where he is tackled and driven back. His forward progress was stopped at two inches short of A-40 with the ball being completely sideways in his possession at that time. The officials will spot the ball so that the nose of the ball is two inches short of A-40 and the long axis is parallel to the sidelines. It will be second down and two inches to go.

First and 10 at A-30. Ball carrier A31 advances to about A-40 where he is tackled and driven back. His forward progress was stopped at two inches beyond A-40 with the ball being completely sideways in his possession at that time. The officials will spot the ball so that the nose of the ball is two inches beyond A-40 and the long axis is parallel to the sidelines. It will be first down and 10 to go.

First and goal at B-5. Ball carrier A31 advances to about the goal line where he is tackled and driven back. His forward progress was stopped at two inches short of the goal line with the ball being completely sideways in his possession at that time. The officials will spot the ball so that the nose of the ball is two inches short of the goal line and the long axis is parallel to the sidelines. It will be second and goal from two inches.

First and goal at B-5. Ball carrier A31 advances to about the goal line where he is tackled and driven back. His forward progress was stopped with the ball just breaking the plane of the goal line with the ball completely sideways in his possession at that time. The officials will rule a touchdown.





Offline VALJ

  • *
  • Posts: 2350
  • FAN REACTION: +85/-13
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2019, 08:06:02 PM »
I was told there would be no geometry involved,

Offline CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 1352
  • FAN REACTION: +36/-33
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2019, 06:23:59 AM »
Somebody lied to you ...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline dammitbobby

  • *
  • Posts: 92
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-1
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2019, 11:27:46 AM »
Rereading this thread, it dawned on me what (I think) the OP was talking about - if the ball is down sideways (parallel to yardlines), I would bet a large portion of individuals would pivot the ball on its center axis to determine the furthest point gained, instead of pivoting it in such a way so that the forward-most 'tip' of the sideways ball (i.e., the widest part of the football) is at the exact same spot.  Pivoting on the center axis would give a couple of inches gained.

Maybe everybody else figured this out but me, LOL.  But - I know if I wasn't paying attention I would do the same thing, and give them a couple inches.

Offline ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1285
  • FAN REACTION: +79/-71
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Rules Question: tip of ball spot...
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2019, 11:55:44 AM »
Ding ding ding ding!  We have a winner!

Yes, that is precisely the geometry at hand.

Glad the light came on.  Happens to all of us.

Robert