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Online ElvisLives

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2020 National Rules Test discussion
« on: June 28, 2020, 08:23:49 AM »
24. Answer C is certainly an option of Team B, but I don’t see the option to accept the penalty for illegal touching, 5 yards from the previous spot and repeat the down, which is far more likely to accepted.
Am I missing something?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 09:39:45 AM by carol1995 »

Offline GuilhermeCohen

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2020, 09:52:07 AM »
I guess 9-4-1 is what they want as an answer. Do you agree?

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 01:23:45 PM »
Well, shiver me timbers (or any other cute statement of embarrassment). A pass may be batted in any direction, but only by eligible players. Forgot that last part. So, technically, both illegal touching and illegal batting. Since illegal batting is a 10-yard penalty, plus loss of down, the penalty for the illegal touching will be declined, and the penalty for the illegal batting will be accepted, resulting in A, 2/20, A-10 (answer a).
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Offline Rob S

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 05:57:48 PM »
...Since illegal batting is a 10-yard penalty, plus loss of down, the penalty for the illegal touching will be declined, and the penalty for the illegal batting will be accepted, resulting in A, 2/20, A-10 (answer a).

Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2020, 07:32:12 PM »
Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.
Nah, doesn’t make me feel better, but thanks for the thought. 😀

Yeah, batting/ kicking are 3 & 1 Enforcements, so the enforcement spot is, indeed, the spot of the foul. ‘b’ is the correct answer.

Offline peterparsons

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2020, 07:19:35 AM »
Begin at the beginning. Q.1. What I am struggling to work out from the way the question is written is whether they are driving at c or d being the correct answer.

Is the purpose of this question to test that there are two consequences (loss of a timeout and 15 yards) because of the away team jerseys, or is it to test that only one of them, the 15-yard penalty, is applied after the kickoff, with the timeout being charged beforehand as per AR 1-4-5-I, AR 1-4-7-III and the thread elsewhere on this forum?

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2020, 11:00:17 AM »
Begin at the beginning. Q.1. What I am struggling to work out from the way the question is written is whether they are driving at c or d being the correct answer.

Is the purpose of this question to test that there are two consequences (loss of a timeout and 15 yards) because of the away team jerseys, or is it to test that only one of them, the 15-yard penalty, is applied after the kickoff, with the timeout being charged beforehand as per AR 1-4-5-I, AR 1-4-7-III and the thread elsewhere on this forum?

Yeah, the question is definitely ambiguous with regard to the charged time out. The edited AR 1-4-5-I clearly spells out that the timeout is to be charged immediately after the RFP signal for the kickoff. So, if this has been done correctly, the time out is "in the past," so "d" is, technically, the correct answer. But, if they are testing our knowledge of the timeout component of the penalty, then "c" may be the correct answer.

Offline blindtxzebra

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2020, 01:10:18 PM »
Remember, batting is not a previous spot foul, so in this case it would be from the spot of the bat, 2/22 @A8 (answer b). If it makes you feel better, I had the same initial thought about it just being illegal touching until I checked the book.

Agreed
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 01:49:52 PM by blindtxzebra »

Offline peterparsons

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2020, 06:57:53 AM »
Q.94. If I've read the scenario correcly, the result of the play is an incomplete pass with a flag down in the end zone for intentional grounding and the foul falls into the category of those for which the 10 second runoff comes into play. Given the game situation, B can decline the penalty to bring up 4th down (Option c) or accept the penalty and, given the game situation, decline the runoff to keep as many seconds on the clock as possible. Since the runoff is an available option, but will be declined, that presumably eliminates b and d.

Given the choice of a 4th down at the A-6 when the clock will start on the snap, or a free kick from the A-20 when the clock will not start until the ball is first legally touched, it feels to me like a coaching decision as to which one of those would be preferable for B, and I'm not convinced, at least in the context of the competitions I officiate in, that I would do anything other than offer the choice to the coach here. Maybe it's a more obvious decision in the NCAA.

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Re: National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2020, 08:41:08 AM »
Q.94. If I've read the scenario correcly, the result of the play is an incomplete pass with a flag down in the end zone for intentional grounding and the foul falls into the category of those for which the 10 second runoff comes into play. Given the game situation, B can decline the penalty to bring up 4th down (Option c) or accept the penalty and, given the game situation, decline the runoff to keep as many seconds on the clock as possible. Since the runoff is an available option, but will be declined, that presumably eliminates b and d.

Given the choice of a 4th down at the A-6 when the clock will start on the snap, or a free kick from the A-20 when the clock will not start until the ball is first legally touched, it feels to me like a coaching decision as to which one of those would be preferable for B, and I'm not convinced, at least in the context of the competitions I officiate in, that I would do anything other than offer the choice to the coach here. Maybe it's a more obvious decision in the NCAA.

The real problem with this question is that they don't tell us the spot of the pass. The A-1 is far different than in A's end zone, and both are legitimate possibilities. If we 'assume' (I hate when that happens) the pass was from the end zone, then Team B 'could' accept the penalty, for a safety, and decline the 10-second subtraction. Then they would hope for a good outcome with the ensuing free kick.
Alternatively, Team B may decline the penalty, and accept an "artificial" result of the down, i.e., incomplete pass, for 4th down at the previous spot. (This is an exception to the rule that the ball belongs to the passing team at the spot of the pass.) By doing so, Team B gets an opportunity to force Team A to put the ball in play one more time from the A-6, in the hopes of stopping Team A and taking over deep in A's territory, with an improved chance to score a game tying touchdown. Also, Team B does not want the ten second subtraction, period. So they would decline it, on its own. But, by declining the penalty, the 10SS is automatically declined, by rule.
Yeah, that would be Team B's choice, and that's what the HC is paid big bucks to decide.  ;D

Offline ajv

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2020, 03:53:07 PM »
Isn't this a pass to avoid the sack in the end zone rather than to conserve time?

[Edit: On the other hand there is AR 3-4-4-VIII]
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 04:00:07 PM by ajv »

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2020, 04:24:32 PM »
Isn't this a pass to avoid the sack in the end zone rather than to conserve time?

[Edit: On the other hand there is AR 3-4-4-VIII]

Yes, there is AR 4-4-4-VIII. The trouble with the AR is that it occurs in the 2nd period, not the 4th. Late in the 4th period, and ahead in score, Team A is not likely to be trying to stop the clock by grounding the pass. But, in that case Team B isn't going to want to take any time off the clock, so the 10SS isn't really a factor, anyway.
But, in the second period, regardless of score, they would likely be trying very hard to score, and want to conserve some time. But, in that case, even if the passer reacts to avoid the safety, they still get the advantage of stopping the clock (especially if they are out of T/Os). So, the 10SS would seem to be an appropriate 'option' for Team B, if they want to accept the safety.
The AR ignores the 7-3-7-c Exception, entirely, because it would be 3rd down, not 4th down (or B's ball, if the previous down had been 4th down).

Offline peterparsons

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2020, 05:49:59 PM »
I'd make a case that this is not a pass designed to conserve time, but to do the opposite. If the QB gets sacked in the end zone on 3rd down, the clock stops and his team have to kick the ball back to B. By throwing the ball away he keeps the series alive and gives his team a chance to burn more time off the clock on 4th down, so there is definitely an advantage to be gained if he can throw the ball away to avoid the sack.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2020, 10:12:45 PM »
I'd make a case that this is not a pass designed to conserve time, but to do the opposite. If the QB gets sacked in the end zone on 3rd down, the clock stops and his team have to kick the ball back to B. By throwing the ball away he keeps the series alive and gives his team a chance to burn more time off the clock on 4th down, so there is definitely an advantage to be gained if he can throw the ball away to avoid the sack.

The 10SS is applicable to either an incomplete forward pass to conserve time or an incomplete forward pass to conserve yardage.  Both are “incomplete illegal forward passes,” and they cause the clock to stop, so Team B will have the option of the 10SS, if they accept the penalty.




Online ElvisLives

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2020, 09:36:46 AM »
Q85 - The statement says the contact is "above the shoulders." Well, that would be the head/neck area. If we are saying this is a BSB, B55 is defenseless. So this should qualify as a 9-1-4 Targeting.
I'm not sure that's what they are looking for in this question, but those are the words.
Based on the available answers, my answer is "c". But, if they really mean the contact is above the shoulders, we would also disgualify A88.

Now, the other possible ambiguity is the issue of the "extended arms." The mitigating factor of using the extended arms to cushion the contact, thus NOT being a BSB, was something discussed frequently last season. By the words used in this example, I don't see any "cushioning," so the block is forceful, and from outside the area of concentration of B55, making it a BSB. But, as my luck goes, they'll say "c" is the correct answer, i.e., not a BSB.

We'll see.

EDIT: I guess I meant “a” might be the answer, if they are saying the extended arms cushion the block.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 06:36:37 PM by ElvisLives »

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2020, 10:00:28 AM »
Q80 - This is a really good example that shows we need to know the "end of the related run." The temptation might be to enforce the RPS at the dead-ball spot. But, in fact, it should be enforced at the "end of the last run," i.e., the spot of the fumble (B-20).

In this question, as well as a few others, they don't tell us the period/time remaining, so we really don't know whether to restart the game clock on the R's signal or on the snap after the ball/ball carrier goes OB.  I guess we are to 'assume' (ouch) we are NOT during the last 2 mins of the 2nd/4th periods.

Offline Rob S

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2020, 06:18:22 PM »
Q85 - The statement says the contact is "above the shoulders." Well, that would be the head/neck area. If we are saying this is a BSB, B55 is defenseless. So this should qualify as a 9-1-4 Targeting.
I'm not sure that's what they are looking for in this question, but those are the words.
Based on the available answers, my answer is "c". But, if they really mean the contact is above the shoulders, we would also disgualify A88.

Now, the other possible ambiguity is the issue of the "extended arms." The mitigating factor of using the extended arms to cushion the contact, thus NOT being a BSB, was something discussed frequently last season. By the words used in this example, I don't see any "cushioning," so the block is forceful, and from outside the area of concentration of B55, making it a BSB. But, as my luck goes, they'll say "c" is the correct answer, i.e., not a BSB.

We'll see.

I came up with c (plus a DQ for TGT), but I have been told that's not the correct answer in the system. I don't know what the "correct" one is, but not that. I'm guessing now that it's a and they are stretching that since it's maybe a legal blindside block (extended hands), the player is not defenseless (although the defenseless player rule doesn't specify it has an illegal BSB, just says "a player who receives a BSB"), thus no foul.

Offline Navcom

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 06:56:41 PM »
Would the BSB outside the 10-2 with extended hands still be a foul?

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2020, 07:12:16 AM »
Would the BSB outside the 10-2 with extended hands still be a foul?

If the extended arms cushion the block, then you have to make a judgment as to whether the block was “forcible.” If you deem the block still forcible, then that’s a BSB. If you deem it not to be forcible, then no, it is not a BSB.
The problem with the question is that it requires us to guess as to the ‘forcible’ nature of the block. And then the statement “above the shoulders” leaves the possibility of yet another personal foul for unnecessary roughness, or targeting, if we deem the block a BSB. The question is just too ambiguous.

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2020, 07:02:55 PM »
 For what it is worth, at the National Referees conference last year Steve Shaw said that by philosophy if arms are extended you should not call an illegal blind side block.

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2020, 07:15:40 PM »
For what it is worth, at the National Referees conference last year Steve Shaw said that by philosophy if arms are extended you should not call an illegal blind side block.

That’s actually worth a lot. Most ‘interpretations’ and ‘philosophies’ get passed along to us working Texas  HS football, but, somehow, that didn’t get to us.
Thanks.

Offline Navcom

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion # 59
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2020, 06:14:57 PM »
59.  4/7 @ A-23. The scrimmage kick is blocked by Team B at the A-15. The ball first hits the ground at the A12 and then B30 falls on the ball at the A-8. Team A had five players in the backfield at the snap.
a. B, 1/Goal @ A-8.
b. B, 1/Goal @ A-4.
c. B, 1/Goal @ A-7.

Team B will probably decline the penalty and take possession at the spot of recovery. I chose "A".

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2020, 06:23:59 PM »
67. 2/8 @ B-28. The forward pass is intercepted by B99 in the end zone. B99 attempts to return the ball but fumbles while still in the end zone. B77 falls on the ball while still in the end zone. A66 blocks below the waist at the B-10 during B99’s run.
a. Safety. 2 points for Team A.
b. B, 1/10 @ B-20, Snap.
c. B, 1/10 @ B-15, Snap.
d. B, 1/10 @ B-35, Snap.

result of the play is a touchback. Since team B player and team b player77 never left the EZ, its a touchback. Enforcement penalty will be at the 20. I chose "D".

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2020, 06:28:34 PM »
79.  3/8 @ B-23. First possession of the extra period. A17’s pass is intercepted by B33 at the B-10. B33 advances to the B-17 where he is hit and fumbles the ball. A44 recovers the loose ball at the B-15. B97 was in the NZ at the snap.

a. A, 1/10 @ B-15. New series for team A.
b. B, 1/10 @ B-25. Penalty declined by rule.
c. B, 1/10 @ B-30. Offside penalty is enforced at the succeeding spot.
d. A, 3/3 @ B-18. Team A must accept the offside penalty to keep their possession series alive.

I'm not sure on this one, but I'm going with "D"

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Re: 2020 National Rules Test discussion # 59
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2020, 09:11:07 PM »
59.  4/7 @ A-23. The scrimmage kick is blocked by Team B at the A-15. The ball first hits the ground at the A12 and then B30 falls on the ball at the A-8. Team A had five players in the backfield at the snap.
a. B, 1/Goal @ A-8.
b. B, 1/Goal @ A-4.
c. B, 1/Goal @ A-7.

Team B will probably decline the penalty and take possession at the spot of recovery. I chose "A".

Concur. Since the kick did not cross the NZ, the ILF penalty can not be ‘tacked on’ to the spot where the dead ball belongs to B. The enforcement would be at the PS, and repeat the down. B will obviously decline. So B, 1/G, spot of recovery, A-8.