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Offline JasonTX

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Six Player Question
« on: July 29, 2020, 01:27:59 PM »
Six player football

3rd and 5.  Team A lines up with no player in position to receive a hand to hand snap. ie., Deep shotgun formation.  B55 lines up within 1 yard of the LOS directly in front of the snapper.   Ruling?

Offline QAfta

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2020, 01:35:19 PM »
Legal right now.  New rule is only for scrimmage kick formation.  So 1st - 3rd down, they can line up on center.  Should there be a rule change for UIL 6-man, yes.  But right now, it is what it is. 

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Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2020, 03:56:08 PM »
Legal right now.  New rule is only for scrimmage kick formation. So 1st - 3rd down, they can line up on center.  Should there be a rule change for UIL 6-man, yes.  But right now, it is what it is. 

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That is correct, but don't think that SKFs only occur on 4th down. We don't know time & score for the given down. Very generally speaking, we would think of 3rd down as NOT being obvious that a scrimmage kick would be made. But, with seconds left in a 2-point game, we could certainly have a field goal attempt on 1st, 2nd, or 3rd down.  Additionally, looking at AR 7-1-4-VII, we see that 3rd down could be considered as a possibility for a SKF, apparently regardless of time/score. (I've never liked this AR, but it is what it is.)

Offline bctgp

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2020, 12:46:03 AM »
Here's another scenario, in 11-man. 4th & 1/2 yd to go at the 50-yd line. Team A lines up as if they are going for it with QB under the snapper.  Most likey you will have 1 maybe 2 Team B players within the frame of the snapper to defend againt a QB sneak. The QB sees at least 1 player within 1-yd of LOS within frame of snapper and then moves back 10-yds behind the NZ and receives the snap and (1) pooch kicks it or (2) attempts to run for the 1st down or passes it. Do we have a Team B foul?

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2020, 11:02:55 AM »
Here's another scenario, in 11-man. 4th & 1/2 yd to go at the 50-yd line. Team A lines up as if they are going for it with QB under the snapper.  Most likey you will have 1 maybe 2 Team B players within the frame of the snapper to defend againt a QB sneak. The QB sees at least 1 player within 1-yd of LOS within frame of snapper and then moves back 10-yds behind the NZ and receives the snap and (1) pooch kicks it or (2) attempts to run for the 1st down or passes it. Do we have a Team B foul?

Yes because it's a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.  Once Team A moves into the scrimmage kick formation team B will need to be out of the frame when the ball is snapped.    In both 1 and 2 of your scenarios they would be a foul.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2020, 11:12:40 AM »
Here's another scenario, in 11-man. 4th & 1/2 yd to go at the 50-yd line. Team A lines up as if they are going for it with QB under the snapper.  Most likey you will have 1 maybe 2 Team B players within the frame of the snapper to defend againt a QB sneak. The QB sees at least 1 player within 1-yd of LOS within frame of snapper and then moves back 10-yds behind the NZ and receives the snap and (1) pooch kicks it or (2) attempts to run for the 1st down or passes it. Do we have a Team B foul?
Yep


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Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2020, 11:33:50 AM »
Not necessarily. This thread is missing one component of a SKF: it must be obvious a scrimmage kick may occur. In six player football, itís very rarely obvious that a kick may occur. In the rare occasion you do see a punt, it is typically on an option play of some sort. Thatís not to say you canít have a SKF, just remember that it has to obvious a kick may occur.

And in the other two scenarios, 4th and 1/2 a yard from midfield with the normal offense in the game is probably not obvious either. Another thing to consider is that we shouldnít let the offense shift formations just to bait B into a foul. If he comes out under center, Iím not ruling it a SKF if he shifts out of it. At that point they are playing games to size up the defense and itís not obvious what they are planning to do. Donít give the offense a cheap five yards.

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2020, 12:26:31 PM »
Not necessarily. This thread is missing one component of a SKF: it must be obvious a scrimmage kick may occur. In six player football, itís very rarely obvious that a kick may occur. In the rare occasion you do see a punt, it is typically on an option play of some sort. Thatís not to say you canít have a SKF, just remember that it has to obvious a kick may occur.

And in the other two scenarios, 4th and 1/2 a yard from midfield with the normal offense in the game is probably not obvious either. Another thing to consider is that we shouldnít let the offense shift formations just to bait B into a foul. If he comes out under center, Iím not ruling it a SKF if he shifts out of it. At that point they are playing games to size up the defense and itís not obvious what they are planning to do. Donít give the offense a cheap five yards.

6-3-14 says nothing about the obviousness of a kick, simply that the offense be in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2020, 12:51:04 PM »
To be in a SKF by definition includes being obvious a kick will occur. 2-16-10-a. If it’s not obvious, you don’t have a SKF making 6-3-14 irrelevant.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2020, 01:04:05 PM by Legacy Zebra »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2020, 01:14:56 PM »
Thanks for that!. Those pesky definitions.   :)

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2020, 02:54:23 PM »
Thanks for that!. Those pesky definitions.   :)

In 47 seasons, Rule 2 has grown from just 3 or pages to 18.  Ya gotta study Rule 2.

For 11-player football, I'm with Legacy on this. The purpose of the SKF rule is to allow Team A to have numbering exceptions, so they can get faster players into the game FOR KICK COVERAGE, without having to change jerseys (numbers). In exchange for this privilege, Team A is not supposed to abuse the privilege by changing formations, shifting players around, etc., to confuse Team B as to who are eligible players, etc. If they come out with a player under the snapper, and then shift out under these time/score/game condition circumstances, then I truly believe every coordinator in NCAA football would support ruling this as NOT being obvious that a scrimmage kick would be made, so this is not a SKF.
Not speaking for TASO, but I would want them to support the same ruling. I'll see if I can get a ruling on this, because I can see this happening.
 
However, for 6-Player football, that may not be the case. UIL 6-Player Football Exception 19 makes it illegal to BLOCK the snapper for one second after the snap, if there is no player under center (regardless if they are otherwise positioned for a SKF, or not). So, it would seem logical that the UIL would want this new illegal position rule to be in effect as well. But logic may not apply here, since all players are eligible. I could see them saying B linemen can't block the snapper for 1-second (when there is no player under center), but they MAY be positioned within the frame of his body. So, if the snapper charges forward to go out for a pass and makes contact, the contact is "on him," and not the defender. Seems to me that B should be allowed to cover all eligible receivers.

Again, not speaking for TASO, and especially for 6-player football, so don't take my word for anything. Let me see if I can get a ruling on this, too.
 

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2020, 07:57:23 PM »
Quote
since all players are eligible. I could see them saying B linemen can't block the snapper for 1-second (when there is no player under center), but they MAY be positioned within the frame of his body. So, if the snapper charges forward to go out for a pass and makes contact, the contact is "on him," and not the defender. Seems to me that B should be allowed to cover all eligible receivers.

This is where I was leaning with regard to six player football. With the snapper being an eligible receiver, it would put B at a tremendous disadvantage if they are specifically prohibited from having a defender directly over a receiver. The point of this rule is to add another layer of protection to a player in a vulnerable position. It shouldn't be able to be used to gain a strategic advantage.

Offline bctgp

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2020, 09:11:51 PM »
My question was purposeful because Team A moving to a SKF prior to the snap would satisfy the "obvious a kick would be made". The ball is at the 50-yd line and it is probably more likely a team punts in that scenario unless late in the game and they need to keep the drive going.

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2020, 08:52:38 AM »
Anytime the word ďobviousĒ appears in a rule, we get these discussions. Since this involves a question about how the rules committee intends the game to be played, i.e., which is more important?  Technical compliance with the rule requirements? Or playing the game in a manner intended by the committee? Thatís a question that can only be answered by the Sec-Ed. Unfortunately, it is not easy to get a ruling from the current Sec-Ed. But, the question has been posed by TASO.
Stay tuned.

The Six-Player question is also being considered by TASO, for discussion with UIL.

Offline Legacy Zebra

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Re: Six Player Question
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2020, 11:14:06 AM »
Quote
My question was purposeful because Team A moving to a SKF prior to the snap would satisfy the "obvious a kick would be made". The ball is at the 50-yd line and it is probably more likely a team punts in that scenario unless late in the game and they need to keep the drive going.

Simply moving a player deeper into the backfield does not make it '"obvious" in my opinion, especially given AR 7-1-4-VIII. That ruling along with 7-1-4-VII that Elvis already cited make it pretty clear that simply having a player more than 10 yards deep is not enough to make it "obvious". The fact that they came out under center to begin with is a decent clue that they are being trying to be deceptive and nothing is obvious at that point.