Author Topic: sent from a friend  (Read 385 times)

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Offline Navcom

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sent from a friend
« on: September 15, 2020, 06:13:12 PM »
A4/20@A-2 Near the end of the game with B losing by 7. Kicker A2 drops the snap but quickly gains control of the ball in his EZ. He runs 5 or 6 steps to his right where he makes a rugby-style kick just after the kick is away B43 runs into the kicking leg of A2. B88 makes a fair catch at the B-46. A66 is called for holding in the EZ while the kicker still had the ball. The game clock stops at 0:53


A4/4@B-44, the game clock is running near the end of the 4th quarter. A is trailing by 7 and neither team has a TO,  A1 receives a hand to hand snap and drops back to pass, but B92 is unblocked and attempts to tackle the QB by grabbing his Face-mask at the B-49 and pulling down,   A1s Helmet comes off (0:12), but he is still standing,   Flustered and confused A1 throws a quick shovel pass to Guard A66 who attempts to catch the ball at the B-45 but drops it into the ground (0:09), ruling? clock?

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 08:50:44 PM »
1. There's no RNK because A2 carried the ball out of the tackle box. The OH can either be enforced at the B-46 and Team B would have 1st and 10 or it can be enforced as a safety and Team B will get 2 points and Team A would free kick from the A-20.

2. The ball is dead as soon as A1's helmet comes off and the clock should be stopped at 0:12. The FMM is enforced from the previous spot as that is the basic spot for runs that end behind the neutral zone and this is a foul by the team not in possession. There is no ITP because the ball was dead before the pass occurred. Because B92's foul stopped the clock, this would qualify for a 10RO which Team A will obviously decline, making the clock start on the snap. Even if this play happened with 1:12 instead of 0:12, the clock would still start on the snap because it is a foul by the team leading.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 09:30:20 PM »
A4/20@A-2 Near the end of the game with B losing by 7. Kicker A2 drops the snap but quickly gains control of the ball in his EZ. He runs 5 or 6 steps to his right where he makes a rugby-style kick just after the kick is away B43 runs into the kicking leg of A2. B88 makes a fair catch at the B-46. A66 is called for holding in the EZ while the kicker still had the ball. The game clock stops at 0:53
Because A2 was (presumably) outside the tackle box, and it was not obvious that a scrimmage kick would be made, B43’s contact with A2 is not a foul. The pure result of the down is B’s ball at the dead-ball spot. Regarding The OH foul by A66 (in his own end zone), Team B has the option to accept a safety for two points, and have Team A make a free kick at the A-20; the game clock will start per free kick rules, and the play clock will be set to 25 seconds and will start on the Referee’s signal signal. Alternatively, Team B can have the ten yard penalty enforced at the spot where the dead-ball belongs to Team B (B-46), and Team B will have 1/10, A-49. Due to the legal kick down, the game clock will next start on the snap. The play clock will be set to 25 seconds, and will start on the Referee’s signal.

A4/4@B-44, the game clock is running near the end of the 4th quarter. A is trailing by 7 and neither team has a TO,  A1 receives a hand to hand snap and drops back to pass, but B92 is unblocked and attempts to tackle the QB by grabbing his Face-mask at the B-49 and pulling down,   A1s Helmet comes off (0:12), but he is still standing,   Flustered and confused A1 throws a quick shovel pass to Guard A66 who attempts to catch the ball at the B-45 but drops it into the ground (0:09), ruling? clock?
A, 1/10, A-41, snap (25).
Even though ball carrier A1’s helmet comes off as a direct result of a helmet foul, the ball is dead instantly when the helmet comes off at the B-49. The action after that moment is of no consequence, and is ignored. Regarding the FMM foul by B92, which is a 3 and 1 / Basic Spot foul, the Basic Spot is the previous spot, and the 15-yard penalty is enforced from the Basic Spot, taking the ball to the B-29, with a first down for Team A. Because Team B will NOT next snap the ball, the game clock would start on the Referee’s signal. However, when the clock is stopped to complete a penalty for a foul by the team ahead in score with less than 2 minutes in the 4th period, he offended team has the option to have the game clock start on the snap, which they will certainly accept. (See AR 3-4-3-VI). Due to the completion of the penalty, the play clock will start on the Referee’s signal.

Note: There is no 10 second subtraction option, because the FMM foul does not, in itself, cause the clock to stop.  The clock was stopped because of the helmet off. Even if it applied (it does not), Team a ain’t about to take a 10SS. You could argue that, because the clock was stopped for the helmet off, there is no option to start the clock on the snap.  But AR 3-4-3-VI makes it clear that the completion of the penalty trumps the helmet off, with respect to starting the clock.


Online Snapper

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2020, 07:46:05 AM »
As I read Legacy and Elvis's answers, the only point they differ on is whether or not the FMM in the 2nd question qualifies for a 10 sec subtraction. 

That's moot in this particular play.  But it is an interesting question.  I can't recall ever seeing anything about that from the NCAA.

It seems worthy of discussion.  I can see some good arguments both in favor of a runoff and of not having a runoff.

The helmet coming off the ball carrier is what actually causes the clock to immediately stop.  There's probably a fraction of a second difference there between the start of the foul and the helmet coming off.  So I can see an argument for no runoff.  And yet, that helmet off is a direct result of the FMM foul, and we would not send the player out for a play. 

The situation seems to me a bit like the example of an incomplete illegal forward pass that is listed in the runoff rule.  The action of throwing an illegal pass doesn't actually stop the clock, the actual incompletion does.   And yet that illegal pass foul does cause the clock stoppage, and thus the runoff.  So it seems reasonable to apply that similar logic to the FMM foul we are discussing.  The FMM foul directly causes the helmet to come off and the clock to be immediately stopped.

I'm not 100% sure and I definitely could be wrong.  But it seems reasonable to say that the FMM in this play did cause the immediate stoppage of the clock and therefore DOES qualify for a runoff.



« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 07:47:37 AM by Snapper »

Offline bossman72

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 08:06:28 AM »
The situation seems to me a bit like the example of an incomplete illegal forward pass that is listed in the runoff rule.  The action of throwing an illegal pass doesn't actually stop the clock, the actual incompletion does.   And yet that illegal pass foul does cause the clock stoppage, and thus the runoff.  So it seems reasonable to apply that similar logic to the FMM foul we are discussing.  The FMM foul directly causes the helmet to come off and the clock to be immediately stopped.

I'm not 100% sure and I definitely could be wrong.  But it seems reasonable to say that the FMM in this play did cause the immediate stoppage of the clock and therefore DOES qualify for a runoff.


This was my initial thought too and the IFP analogy also came to mind.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2020, 08:41:55 AM »
In the cases of false starts, illegal incomplete forward passes, etc., the act of the foul, itself, actually, by rule, causes the clock to stop. In the case of a facemask foul, the act of the foul, itself, does not cause the clock to stop. In the absence of anything else that would cause the clock to stop, play would continue. Even with the helmet foul, if A1's helmet had not come off, the clock would not stop. It was the fact that BALL CARRIER A1's helmet came off - regardless of why it came off - that caused the clock to stop. Had it been a non-ball carrier, the clock would not have stopped, even as the result of a foul. So, there is not a foul that caused the clock to stop. Thus, there is no option for a 10SS.

Don't get confused by the difference between the act of a foul causing the clock to stop (illegal incomplete passes, and dead-ball fouls while the clock is running), and the COMPLETION of a penalty that causes the clock to stop. A Team A holding foul, with no other reason for the clock to stop, does not , in itself, stop the clock. However, completion of the penalty for that foul stops the clock, and the 10SS does not apply to those situations. The 10SS only applies to those fouls that actually cause the clock to stop the instant the foul occurs.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 08:56:51 AM by ElvisLives »

Online Legacy Zebra

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2020, 09:24:16 AM »
And in the case of a caught illegal forward pass, the clock would continue to run, but if we have an incomplete illegal forward pass we have a runoff. So even in that case, it’s really not the foul that causes the clock to stop, it’s the fact that the pass was incomplete. This is a similar case, in that the foul may have started as something that would not carry a runoff, the reality is that the defender pulling the ball carrier’s helmet off stopped the clock. Unless there’s an AR, bulletin, test question, or some other interpretation that says otherwise, I’m not splitting that hair. The defender’s face mask foul stopped clock when he pulled the helmet off the ball carrier.

If there were a second action, such as the FMM followed by getting hit by second defender that caused the helmet to come off, that would be a different scenario. But this is all one action of the foul.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2020, 09:25:57 AM by Legacy Zebra »

Online ElvisLives

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2020, 10:52:50 AM »
And in the case of a caught illegal forward pass, the clock would continue to run, but if we have an incomplete illegal forward pass we have a runoff. So even in that case, it’s really not the foul that causes the clock to stop, it’s the fact that the pass was incomplete. This is a similar case, in that the foul may have started as something that would not carry a runoff, the reality is that the defender pulling the ball carrier’s helmet off stopped the clock. Unless there’s an AR, bulletin, test question, or some other interpretation that says otherwise, I’m not splitting that hair. The defender’s face mask foul stopped clock when he pulled the helmet off the ball carrier.

If there were a second action, such as the FMM followed by getting hit by second defender that caused the helmet to come off, that would be a different scenario. But this is all one action of the foul.

The purpose of the 2 minute and 10SS rules are to keep a team from purposely abusing the clock rules to their advantage. I really don’t think a player would be consciously thinking, “If I rip this guy’s helmet off (ball carrier) the clock will  stop.” Whereas, we know for certain that they are thinking, “If I throw this ball away, the clock will stop.” Or, “If I jump across the NZ and touch that lineman, the clock will stop.” Heck, they are coached to do that. Nobody coaches a guy to pull the BCs helmet off.
There is no hair splitting here. The helmet off caused the clock to stop, as a safety precaution for the BC. The fact that the helmet was pulled off by an opponent is a live-ball foul, but it, in itself, does not cause the clock to stop. Completely different issues, although they happened to occur in the same general time period. The helmet has to come completely off, so, let’s say the defender grasped and pulled the mask (foul) and caused the helmet to become dislodged, but the BC broke away, and a moment later the helmet finally came completely off. The helmet off finally causes the clock to stop, not the FMM. But, we are still going to rule the helmet came off as a result of a foul, so the player can remain in the game.
In the case of any live-ball contact foul, the foul, itself, in real time, occurs before the ball becomes dead, and does not cause the clock to stop. In the case of an incomplete illegal pass, or other fouls “with the ball,” (which could include an illegal scrimmage kick made beyond the NZ), the action becomes a foul at the moment the ball becomes dead, and simultaneously causes the clock to stop, by rule.

And the 10SS only applies to fouls that, in, and of themselves, by rule, CAUSE the clock to stop. A live-ball FMM against the ball carrier ain’t one of those. Even if it pulls the helmet off.

Offline bossman72

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2020, 09:07:50 AM »
The purpose of the 2 minute and 10SS rules are to keep a team from purposely abusing the clock rules to their advantage. I really don’t think a player would be consciously thinking, “If I rip this guy’s helmet off (ball carrier) the clock will  stop.” Whereas, we know for certain that they are thinking, “If I throw this ball away, the clock will stop.” Or, “If I jump across the NZ and touch that lineman, the clock will stop.” Heck, they are coached to do that. Nobody coaches a guy to pull the BCs helmet off.

At the same time, things that have on intent of abusing the clock do qualify as runoffs.  Such as a late hit or DOG.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2020, 03:04:51 PM »
Yes, because those are dead-ball fouls while the clock is running that cause the clock to stop. Those fouls have always caused the clock to stop. A live-ball FMM does not cause the clock to stop. Never has.
When the BC gets speared (9-1-3) inbounds, and is immediately driven OB, what stopped the clock? Not the 9-1-3. The OB stopped the clock. Similar in this case. It wasn't the FMM that stopped the clock. It was the helmet off. Thus, there is no opportunity for a 10SS.




Offline Morningrise

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2020, 03:54:10 PM »
I agree. No runoff "against" Team B, whether the victim's helmet stayed on, fell off ten seconds later, or fell off 0.1 seconds later. Don't get fancy here, the only live-ball fouls that cause runoffs are things you would do to the football on purpose. Chucking the ball into the ground or OOB. Those are the only ones you'll ever see. The rest are dead-ball fouls.

The ball carrier's helmet off causes the ball to become dead immediately.

*Any* helmet off is a clockstopper at the end of the down. This could instead cause a runoff "against" Team A, except...

B's live-ball foul is also a clockstopper. Helmets and injuries only cause a runoff if they are the *sole* cause of the stoppage. Here we have two clockstoppers, the helmet and the flag, so the helmet can't cause a runoff. It doesn't even matter which team committed the foul. Even if the flag was against A, there still wouldn't be a runoff for A's helmet.

On the other hand, the "TOT TOSS" (Trailing Or Tied Team's Option to Start on the Snap) rule is in effect because a flag was ONE OF the things that stopped the clock. This rule doesn't care whether there were multiple clockstoppers. So A can put it on the snap.

Offline dammitbobby

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2020, 03:57:58 PM »
This is really interesting.  I see, and understand, both arguments.  I lean towards it would not cause a runoff, but what do I know  :laugh:

Online ElvisLives

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Re: sent from a friend
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2020, 04:07:36 PM »
I agree. No runoff "against" Team B, whether the victim's helmet stayed on, fell off ten seconds later, or fell off 0.1 seconds later. Don't get fancy here, the only live-ball fouls that cause runoffs are things you would do to the football on purpose. Chucking the ball into the ground or OOB. Those are the only ones you'll ever see. The rest are dead-ball fouls.

The ball carrier's helmet off causes the ball to become dead immediately.

*Any* helmet off is a clockstopper at the end of the down. This could instead cause a runoff "against" Team A, except...

B's live-ball foul is also a clockstopper. Helmets and injuries only cause a runoff if they are the *sole* cause of the stoppage. Here we have two clockstoppers, the helmet and the flag, so the helmet can't cause a runoff. It doesn't even matter which team committed the foul. Even if the flag was against A, there still wouldn't be a runoff for A's helmet.

On the other hand, the "TOT TOSS" (Trailing Or Tied Team's Option to Start on the Snap) rule is in effect because a flag was ONE OF the things that stopped the clock. This rule doesn't care whether there were multiple clockstoppers. So A can put it on the snap.
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