Author Topic: Place Kick?  (Read 191 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2457
  • FAN REACTION: +97/-46
Place Kick?
« on: October 23, 2020, 10:10:36 AM »
I didn't see it but a friend of mine did.  It was a jh game in Texas using NCAA rules.  Team A snaps the ball on the FG Try attempt.  The holder catches the snap and has complete control of the ball with one hand on top and somehow the other hand is on the bottom of the ball and as he is bringing the ball down the kicker kicks the ball from his control (having never been placed on the ground) and the ball go through the uprights.  Ruling:

Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 731
  • FAN REACTION: +48/-9
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2020, 10:32:57 AM »
I have an illegal scrimmage kick. It does not meet the requirements of any of the three legal scrimmage kicks (punt, place kick, or drop kick). By definition any other kicking is illegal. The ball is dead immediately and the loss of down ends the try.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1740
  • FAN REACTION: +101/-78
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2020, 10:55:30 AM »
This is an illegal kick. A place kick must be made with the ball on the ground (or on a tee in Texas UIL football). This should be a 5 yard penalty from the previous spot, and repeat the down. You won't find specific rule language or AR that addresses this, but, trust me, this is an illegal kick.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1740
  • FAN REACTION: +101/-78
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2020, 10:56:59 AM »
I have an illegal scrimmage kick. It does not meet the requirements of any of the three legal scrimmage kicks (punt, place kick, or drop kick). By definition any other kicking is illegal. The ball is dead immediately and the loss of down ends the try.

What loss of down? That's only for an illegal kick made beyond the NZ.

Offline Legacy Zebra

  • *
  • Posts: 731
  • FAN REACTION: +48/-9
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2020, 11:15:21 AM »
Theres also nothing that says its a five yard penalty either, but we used context clues to get that part. There’s no penalty prescribed for an illegal scrimmage kick like this at all, but we can deduce what it should be. The two options under 6-3-11 are for a return kick or a kick made beyond the neutral zone. This is neither of those. But if you look at the philosophy of the foul and other fouls like it, this should include a loss of down. Think of illegally kicking a loose ball, scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, illegal forward pass, illegal forward handing, illegal batting. What do they all have in common? They are all illegal attempts to advance the ball and they all carry a loss of down. The OP is not a procedural foul. It is an illegal attempt to advance the ball and score. 

The only reason 6-3-11-b doesn’t have a loss of down is because return kicks by definition occur after a change of possession so there’s no down to lose.

Offline JasonTX

  • *
  • Posts: 2457
  • FAN REACTION: +97/-46
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2020, 12:58:44 PM »
I was thinking something along the lines of 9-4-3 and 9-4-4.  9-4-3 is a 10 yard penalty for batting a ball in possession.  This is not a bat in the play but it is kicking the ball in player possession.

Online ElvisLives

  • *
  • Posts: 1740
  • FAN REACTION: +101/-78
  • The rules are there if you need them.
Re: Place Kick?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2020, 01:04:32 PM »
Legacy could be right. But the actions he references are kicks made where or when a punt or a place kick (either as defined) is not allowed to be made, or when the ball is loose, or in player possession of an opponent. That's not what happens in this case. In this case, a legal kick is still allowed by rule, and the ball is neither loose, nor in possession of an opponent.
Since there isn't rule language that addresses this specific action, I'm hanging my hat on 6-3-10-d, and ruling that the ball was kicked while illegally elevated. That's a 5yard penalty from the previous spot, and repeat the down.
This is one that needs an official interpretation from Shaw, in the short term, and a rule addition or change in the long term.
Good luck.