Author Topic: scrimmage kick--fg attempt  (Read 4091 times)

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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #50 on: November 18, 2021, 08:57:36 AM »
Yes. Which is why succeeding spot language in the exception is so bad.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #51 on: November 18, 2021, 09:21:53 AM »
My argument in a nutshell:

The play in question: K misses a field goal on the last play of regulation in a tie game. K commits a live ball foul (illegal formation) on this play.

The enforcement: Using the 10-4-2 exception, R has three options: 1. Decline and go to overtime. 2. 5yd penalty from the previous spot, with a replay of the down.  3. Tack on 5yds at the succeeding spot.

The problem: The definition of succeeding spot in the rulebook is: ďThe spot where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.Ē In this particular situation, the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. Under no circumstances would the ball ever be snapped at the R20 after a missed field goal during the last play in regulation in a tied game if a foul does not occur. That spot would ALWAYS be the first play in overtime.

The other problem: 3-3 commands us to extend the period and play an untimed down on an accepted live ball foul by either team. We canít do that at the succeeding spot, because the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. So, we canít go to overtime.

Solution: To be able to apply 10-4-2 exception to this play: 1. The succeeding spot language would have to be removed and other language added (similar or identical to the suggestion by bossman).  2. Rule that the exception cannot apply because we canít end the period on an accepted foul, and to apply the exception we would have to end the period and go to the succeeding spot, which is the first play in overtime. So, in this situation, R would have to accept enforcement at previous spot or decline.

Offline bossman72

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #52 on: November 18, 2021, 09:47:29 AM »
So, in this situation, R would have to accept enforcement at previous spot or decline.

In NCAA it's handled this way.
First, they don't allow tack-on penalties on field goals, so let's pretend this was a punt for a touchback. 
Their options would be to decline and go to OT, enforce 5 from previous and replay the down, or tack on 5 from the 20 and have 1st and 10 from the 25 with an untimed down, since it's an accepted live ball foul to extend the period.

This is one thing I don't like about the NFHS rule making process.  They copy a rule from NCAA but don't copy the rule book language just to be different... "because we're not NCAA".  They end up screwing it up and it takes 2 or 3 rule change cycles to correct it.

Offline PABJNR

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #53 on: November 18, 2021, 09:47:34 AM »
The way the rule is written one can argue in this case there is no succeeding spot.  For OT to be the succeeding spot, the 4th quarter has to have ended, which because of the foul it canít end by rule.  By the definition of succeeding spot if the foul had not occurred, the period would have ended.

I would say in this case the basic spot would move to the 20 and there would be an untamed down after enforcement, which I believe would comply with the spirit of the rule.

Look at 10.4.4 Situation B in case book.  They say basic spot is 20, as the 20 is succeeding spot on a touchback.  If this play happened on the last play of a tied game would it be the same dilemma?

My opinion is the foul, the way the current rules are written and by the spirit of the rule is to have an untimed down following enforcement from the 20.  I just canít get to an enforcement in OT as the period has not expired.


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Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #54 on: November 18, 2021, 11:36:00 AM »
I agree.  This cannot go to OT since IMHO that clearly violates the requirement that the game cannot end until the live ball penalties have been completed.  I would focus on revising the language in definition of succeeding spot since the added language, again IMHO, simply does not belong there.
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Offline KWH

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #55 on: November 18, 2021, 07:38:58 PM »
So back to a previously discussed question.  Isn't it correct under NFHS rules to say that a half cannot end until all live ball fouls have been completed?

YES - NFHS Rule 3-3-3a
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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2021, 06:13:22 AM »
Yes. Which is why succeeding spot language in the exception is so bad.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2021, 09:59:59 AM »
IMHO, succeeding spot is often synonymous with end of run, such as when big ole' Bubba wanders out on the field to git a better look while the play is still going but doesn't participate. That is a live ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement which will probably be the end of the run - unless it was a loose ball play via definition. It which case the succeeding spot would also be also be the preceding spot. With the tack-on rule, end of run couldn't be used as there might not be any run, just the kick rolling dead. The location of the kick becoming dead would be the succeeding spot.

While there may be fly=poop in the pepper shaker, it still tastes good  eAt& on my 'tatters and greens :).

Offline CalhounLJ

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scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2021, 11:17:11 AM »
IMHO, succeeding spot is often synonymous with end of run, such as when big ole' Bubba wanders out on the field to git a better look while the play is still going but doesn't participate. That is a live ball foul with succeeding spot enforcement which will probably be the end of the run - unless it was a loose ball play via definition. It which case the succeeding spot would also be also be the preceding spot. With the tack-on rule, end of run couldn't be used as there might not be any run, just the kick rolling dead. The location of the kick becoming dead would be the succeeding spot.

While there may be fly=poop in the pepper shaker, it still tastes good  eAt& on my 'tatters and greens :).
Apply that same logic to a field goal that scores. If K kicks a field goal that ties the game on the last play of regulation, and R fouls, 8-4-3 states K can keep the score and have the penalty enforced at the succeeding spot. Where is that succeeding spot? At any other time in the game, the succeeding spot would be the kickoff, unless itís the last play of the half. but not in this situation. In this situation the succeeding spot is the first play in overtime. Why? Because thatís the spot where the ball would next be put in play if no foul had occurred.

Which brings up another question. Why is it that on scoring plays we have no problem setting aside 3-3, but on the 10-4-2 exception itís forbidden? Itís still an accepted live ball foul. Other than just because?


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Offline PABJNR

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2021, 02:15:52 PM »
I think it comes down to spirit of the rule and philosophy.  On a made field goal, the philosophy is the foul to not go unpunished and the succeeding spot is clearly the next kickoff or OT.

With the play we are talking about, the spirit is to prevent a re-kick.  Also the 10-4-2 exception states when k will not be next to put the ball into play. We donít know that if we move to OT.

I totally get where you are coming from though, but I think that is why the difference on the thought process. 


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2021, 02:41:11 PM »
I agree with the philosophy and have no problem with the different enforcements. The issue is that at the present time we need two different definitions of succeeding spot to make it work.


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Offline sczeebra

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2022, 06:17:23 PM »
From what I can see, this dilemma was not cleared up with any changes to the Rules Book. Does anyone know if this has been addressed in the Case Book?

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2022, 12:37:50 PM »
The dilemma is actually cleared by the statement under the title : RESOLVING TIED GAMES.

" This procedure may be accepted as written, amended, or rejected in whole or part, by each member state association."

One's state association could handle it as they choose. If it occurred in Maine, I would rule the tack-on foul was part of the 4th quarter and not to be carried into overtime.

Offline CalhounLJ

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scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #63 on: March 07, 2022, 07:09:12 AM »
The dilemma is actually cleared by the statement under the title : RESOLVING TIED GAMES.

" This procedure may be accepted as written, amended, or rejected in whole or part, by each member state association."

One's state association could handle it as they choose. If it occurred in Maine, I would rule the tack-on foul was part of the 4th quarter and not to be carried into overtime.
Ralph, can you give any insight as to the reluctance of the rules committee to enforce a foul on a non scoring play in overtime, while allowing it on certain scores? If the play in question had been a foul by the defense on a score, we could move that to overtime, even though it would be live ball, but on this one we canít. It has to be something philosophy related.


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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #64 on: March 07, 2022, 07:34:01 AM »
Ralph, can you give any insight as to the reluctance of the rules committee to enforce a foul on a non scoring play in overtime, while allowing it on certain scores? If the play in question had been a foul by the defense on a score, we could move that to overtime, even though it would be live ball, but on this one we canít. It has to be something philosophy related.


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When we put in the 'bridge' foul enforcement, we felt it would complicate matters for OT choices to bridge such fouls over, hence the term subsequent kickoff, as there aren't any kickoffs in OT. A dead ball foul has occurred after the PAT/FG occurred after the period had ended and would be enforced on the opening play of OT. Very important to notify both coaches of this as it may impact the decision on choice.

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #65 on: March 07, 2022, 08:22:25 AM »
When we put in the 'bridge' foul enforcement, we felt it would complicate matters for OT choices to bridge such fouls over, hence the term subsequent kickoff, as there aren't any kickoffs in OT. A dead ball foul has occurred after the PAT/FG occurred after the period had ended and would be enforced on the opening play of OT. Very important to notify both coaches of this as it may impact the decision on choice.

Thanks. Using the terms "Kickoff" and "succeeding spot" was wise, because that's the way I learned to apply the various enforcements. I understand that a live ball foul by the defense on a touchdown scoring play cannot be bridged to overtime, because the language states "subsequent kickoff," and there is no kickoff in Overtime.

Also, as I understand the rule, a live-ball foul by the defense on a field-goal scoring play CAN be bridged to overtime though, because the language states "succeeding spot." I have always understood the term "succeeding spot" to be the same as the rule book states, "where the ball will next be put in play had there been no foul." That language fits the enforcement of a foul by the defense on a field-goal scoring play.

Example 1: K kicks a field goal to tie the game on the last play in regulation. R hurdles K in an attempt to block the field goal. Flag! Live ball foul for hurdling. If K chooses, they can take the field goal and have that penalty enforced at the succeeding spot, which is the first play in overtime, correct?

Now, turn the situation on its ear and consider this:

Example 2: K kicks a field goal to try and win a tied game on the last play in regulation. The field goal is no good. For some crazy reason, K hurdles R. Flag! Live ball foul for hurdling. If R chooses, they can accept the penalty, and according to 10-4-2 exception, have that penalty enforced at the succeeding spot, which is the first play in overtime.

The problem with Example 2 is we don't know whether K will be next to put the ball in play until we get there, so logically, we must deal with the penalty before we go. I understand that. But, we can't go to the succeeding spot to enforce it, because the definition of succeeding spot won't allow it.

Simple solution: The 10-4-2 exception can't apply because we don't know if K will be next to put the ball in play. Options for R: accept the penalty, enforce using all-but-one, make K rekick, or decline the penalty and go to overtime. Easy peasy.

Does that make any modicum of sense? If not, tell me where I'm wrong. I'm honestly trying to get this right in my head so I don't screw it up on Friday night.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 08:27:38 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #66 on: March 07, 2022, 01:19:01 PM »
I agree fully, Calhoun, with your 'easy peasey' choice. IMHO, only the  USC & DBPF fouls should carry over to OT . I suggest the following advice to the coaches :

Offending coach - "If you win the toss and choose offense, you will be goal to goal from the 25. If you choose defense, it will be goal to goal from the 5."

Offended coach- "If you win the toss and choose offense, you will be goal to goal from the 5. If you choose defense, it will be their ball, goal to go from the 25".

IMHO, its much better for the coaches to understand BEFORE the coin-toss than to argue about it after.  :)

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #67 on: March 07, 2022, 01:37:24 PM »
So clear consensus on a few things here:

1.  Current rules require that a live ball foul penalty "be completed" PRIOR to a period ending.

2.  DB fouls may be carried over to OT depending on individual states options on how to handle this.

3.  We must know and be able to explain to "offended team" what options are in play here prior to the pre-OT meeting with the teams.

Still not sure that we have a definitive solution here?
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Offline KWH

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #68 on: March 07, 2022, 03:23:56 PM »

3-3-3...A period shall be extended by an untimed down if one of the following occurred during a down in which time expired.
     a.   There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted, except for those fouls listed in 3-3-4b

3-3-4b  There was a foul by either team and the penalty is accepted for:
      1.  unsportsmanlike fouls,
      2.  nonplayer fouls,
      3.  fouls that specify loss of down,
      4.  fouls that are enforced on the subsequent kickoff as in Rule 8-2-2, 8-2-3, 8-2-4 or 8-2-5 or,
      5.  fouls for which enforcement, by rule, result in a safety.

The way I read these two rules if a fouls that qualifies for 10-4-2 EXCEPTION occurs, by rule, the period is not extended.

2-41-10...The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.


2-41-10 is NOT APPLICABLE in this situation.
Why? Because a foul did occur!
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Offline CalhounLJ

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scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2022, 04:20:42 PM »
2-41-10 is NOT APPLICABLE in this situation.
Why? Because a foul did occur!
[/quote]


This is completely wrong. I can list endless examples. But I will pick only one.

A USC foul is enforced from the succeeding spot every time. Where is that spot? Where the ball would next be put into play if there had been no foul.

Example: A ball 1st and 10 on the A10. A runs the ball 5 yds. During the play, Bís coach cusses an official. Flag! USC. Where will the penalty be enforced from? The A15. Why? Because thatís the succeeding spot. WHERE THE BALL WOULD NEXT BE PUT IN PLAY HAD THERE BEEN NO FOUL.

Even though a foul occurred, the definition of succeeding spot did not change.

This is the kind of interpretation that greatly disturbs me, especially concerning the future direction of the NFHS rules committee.


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Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2022, 04:23:13 PM »
I agree fully, Calhoun, with your 'easy peasey' choice. IMHO, only the  USC & DBPF fouls should carry over to OT . I suggest the following advice to the coaches :

Offending coach - "If you win the toss and choose offense, you will be goal to goal from the 25. If you choose defense, it will be goal to goal from the 5."

Offended coach- "If you win the toss and choose offense, you will be goal to goal from the 5. If you choose defense, it will be their ball, goal to go from the 25".

IMHO, its much better for the coaches to understand BEFORE the coin-toss than to argue about it after.  :)
Thanks Ralph.


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Offline KWH

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2022, 07:40:15 PM »
CalhounLJ -
Here is what I will do. The NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting this July in San Antonio, TX. and I will pose your play situation on the floor.
Now, this meeting is supposed to have the SRI (or his/her designee) from every member state.
Do they all show up?  Nope? 
Hopefully there will be a good turnout as allowing the passer to throw the ball away is a BIG BIG change. It would be nice if everyone at least started out of the same page.  I believe this will be a ZOOM meeting along with an in person meeting.
Some of you may wish to contact your SRI and see if they will be attending, if not, volunteer your services.

Remember this is a rules interpreter meeting so no rules will be changed, rather they will be interpreted.


 CalhounLJ - Please let me know which member state you are from? PM me if you would like!

Thank you
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 02:55:53 AM by KWH »
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Offline CalhounLJ

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scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2022, 05:55:19 AM »
CalhounLJ -
Here is what I will do. The NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting this July in San Antonio, TX. and I will pose your play situation on the floor.
Now, this meeting is supposed to have the SRI (or his/her designee) from every member state.
Do they all show up?  Nope? 
Hopefully there will be a good turnout as allowing the passer to throw the ball away is a BIG BIG change. It would be nice if everyone at least started out of the same page.  I believe this will be a ZOOM meeting along with an in person meeting.
Some of you may wish to contact your SRI and see if they will be attending, if not, volunteer your services.

Remember this is a rules interpreter meeting so no rules will be changed, rather they will be interpreted.


 CalhounLJ - Please let me know which member state you are from? PM me if you would like!

Thank you
Mississippi.

Thanks. This feels somewhat like the Prosecutor presenting the case for the defense, but I do appreciate the effort.  Hopefully you can get clarification on this. I do appreciate the effort. Thanks again.


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« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 06:43:30 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline ElvisLives

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #73 on: March 08, 2022, 06:26:17 AM »
CalhounLJ -
Here is what I will do. The NFHS Rules Interpreter meeting this July in San Antonio, TX. and I will pose your play situation on the floor.


Is this meeting for multiple sports? Or just football? If this is just football, I find it very interesting that the NFHS would choose the only state in the country that doesn't use NFHS rules to host this meeting. I wonder why?

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: scrimmage kick--fg attempt
« Reply #74 on: March 08, 2022, 06:28:40 AM »
Current wording:  2-41-10...The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked if a foul had not occurred.

What new problem(s) would revising the specific wording create?  2-41-10...The succeeding spot is where the ball would next be snapped or free kicked prior to penalty enforcement(s).

Given the previous discussion that we agree that a period cannot end prior to completion of all live ball fouls, I believe that this works and would/could be considered a simple "editorial change" since it does not really change the intent of the rule IMHO.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 06:35:01 AM by NVFOA_Ump »
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