Impetus/Batting/End Line play

[dammitbobby]

Pulled from the other forum... is this correct?

3/10 from the 50. A12 takes the snap and scrambles to find an open receiver, he then takes off running and gets to the B18, where he is legally hit and fumbles the ball toward the B's goal line. A88 muffs the ball at the B6 into the end zone, where B8, 8 yards deep in the end zone, bats the ball past the end line.

My answer:
Safety.  When A88 muffs the ball at the B6, he applies a new force to the ball, but not new impetus. By batting the loose ball, B8 has applied new impetus to the ball (8-7-1-2-b) and he is therefore responsible for the ball going past the endline. The result is a safety because the ball became dead out of bounds beyond the goal line, and the defending team - through B8's bat - is responsible for the ball being there.

[Legacy Zebra]

Incorrect. The result of the down is a touchback, but Team A will accept the penalty for B8 illegally batting a loose ball in the end zone. That penalty is half the distance from the end of A12’s run. It will be 1st and goal for Team A at the B-9.

B8 does add new impetus when he bats the ball, but that is irrelevant to this play. The only impetus that matters is the impetus on the ball when it last crosses the goal line going in. The impetus when it becomes dead doesn’t matter. So in this play, the impetus that put the ball in the end zone is still A12’s fumble. That makes it a touchback.


If B8 batted the ball back into the field of play and it was then muffed back into the end zone, B8 would then be responsible for it.

[dammitbobby]

Incorrect. The result of the down is a touchback, but Team A will accept the penalty for B8 illegally batting a loose ball in the end zone. That penalty is half the distance from the end of A12’s run. It will be 1st and goal for Team A at the B-9.

B8 does add new impetus when he bats the ball, but that is irrelevant to this play. The only impetus that matters is the impetus on the ball when it last crosses the goal line going in. The impetus when it becomes dead doesn’t matter. So in this play, the impetus that put the ball in the end zone is still A12’s fumble. That makes it a touchback.


If B8 batted the ball back into the field of play and it was then muffed back into the end zone, B8 would then be responsible for it.

This is what I'm struggling with - where does that assertion come from, because I'm not seeing it

8-7-1 The team responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind a goal line or being dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind a goal line is the team whose player carries the ball or imparts an impetus to it that forces it on, above or across the goal line, or is responsible for a loose ball being on, above or behind the goal line.

That would be Team A.

8-7-2-b   Initial impetus is considered expended and the responsibility for the ball’s progress is charged to a player: 1. If that player kicks a ball not in player possession or bats a loose ball after it strikes the ground.

Wouldn't this be Team B?



Rewriting with the teams: Team A's initial impetus is considered expended and the responsibility for the ball’s progress is charged to Team B since a Team B player batted a loose ball.

Or am I just just being dumb and getting caught up in semantics?

 

[FWREF]

B8 does add new impetus when he bats the ball, but that is irrelevant to this play. The only impetus that matters is the impetus on the ball when it last crosses the goal line going in. The impetus when it becomes dead doesn’t matter. So in this play, the impetus that put the ball in the end zone is still A12’s fumble. That makes it a touchback.

I agree that A is likely to take the penalty but i can't see why a rule (8-1-2) would be irrelevant here? B is responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind their end line. The result of the play would be a safety?

[Legacy Zebra]

We don’t care

This is what I'm struggling with - where does that assertion come from, because I'm not seeing it

8-7-1 The team responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind a goal line or being dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind a goal line is the team whose player carries the ball or imparts an impetus to it that forces it on, above or across the goal line, or is responsible for a loose ball being on, above or behind the goal line.

That would be Team A.

8-7-2-b   Initial impetus is considered expended and the responsibility for the ball’s progress is charged to a player: 1. If that player kicks a ball not in player possession or bats a loose ball after it strikes the ground.

Wouldn't this be Team B?



Rewriting with the teams: Team A's initial impetus is considered expended and the responsibility for the ball’s progress is charged to Team B since a Team B player batted a loose ball.

Or am I just just being dumb and getting caught up in semantics?

 

Yes, Team B adds a new impetus. It’s just that that new impetus doesn’t matter because it never caused the ball to cross the goal line. That’s why there’s separate sections for impetus and responsibility. Even though Team B adds new impetus, Team A is still responsible for putting the ball across the goal line because their impetus was on the ball when it crossed.

I agree that A is likely to take the penalty but i can't see why a rule (8-1-2) would be irrelevant here? B is responsible for the ball being out of bounds behind their end line. The result of the play would be a safety?

Who is responsible for it being out of bounds is completely irrelevant. What matters is who is responsible for it being behind the goal line. That is Team A.

[JasonTX]

Batting a loose ball in the end zone does not change impetus, unless the bat caused the ball to leave the end zone and return back.  In your play Team A is responsible for the ball being in the end zone.

[ElvisLives]

Batting a loose ball in the end zone does not change impetus, unless the bat caused the ball to leave the end zone and return back.  In your play Team A is responsible for the ball being in the end zone.

Absolutely correct, although I have never liked it when Redding changed it in the early 2000s. Prior to that, the action that caused the ball to cross the goal line had to occur in the field of play; impetus truly could not be changed in the end zone.
However, Redding changed that, and impetus on the ball is whatever action that can cause impetus (muffing a ball NEVER imparts impetus on the ball) imparted on the ball that ultimately results in the ball crossing the goal line from the field of play into the end zone. That action could occur in the end zone, then the ball crosses the goal line into the field of play, and then crosses back into the end zone (with no other impetus-imparting action applied to the ball), where it becomes dead (behind the goal line). Whether the natural result of the down is a safety or a touchback depends on who imparted the impetus.

[copedaddy]

So help out an old retired science teacher with ADHD and dyslexia. What is the result of the OP play? Isn't the bat by B illegal? Reading this thread has completely upside down

[dammitbobby]

Yes it is an illegal bat, which does not impact the natural result of the play, which is a touchback. Team A will undoubtedly accept the foul, and it will be enforced half the distance from where A12 fumbled (B18), so 1/G at the 9, 25 PC, snap.

Thanks for the help on this guys. It's still not crystal clear but it's definitely less muddy than before. I think I had always assumed the bat was what caused what I thought was a safety, but it's really A's fumble that caused the touchback. What matters, is not that it went out past the end line, but whose fault it was that the ball crossed the GL.

[ElvisLives]

[quote author=dammitbobby link=topic=17385.msg175317#msg175317 date=1752717356]
…but whose fault it was that the ball crossed the GL.
[/quote]

I know this is what you meant, but the additional words are very important to fully understanding the whole rule.

“…but whose fault it was that the ball LAST crossed the GL (from the field of play into the EZ).”