Legal or Illegal under FED Rules

[Atlanta Blue]

Under Armour Shooter Sleeve

Legal or Illegal?

[busman]

Basketball or football?  What is the material?

[AlUpstateNY]

Without having seen the 2010 Rule Book, and referencing the 2009 version it appears the pictured "shooter" sleeve would NOT comply with ND: 1-5-3-k (Unifom Adornments).  Depending on what it's make of and it's surface, it might also NOT comply with NF: 1-5-3-j (Slippery or Sticky Substance).

It would make lfe easier if Nike, Under Armour and others stopped trying to circumvent existing rules with "new" devices.

[jg-me]

AB,
  This issue arose in in our state a couple years ago. Although I no longer work NF, I do know the state interpreter took this to NF and these were ruled as okay by rule - essentially wearing these has no different effect than wearing a long sleeve under garment as long as they are not sticky, etc. You may want to have your state interpreter confirm the specifics through NF headquarters.

[Atlanta Blue]

Football - which is why I posted it on the FOOTBALL rules board!  

Material is a soft polyester fabric, much like an UnderArmour shirt.  No additional texture.


Here is my dilema:  some officials have said they are "adornments", and fall under the same rule as a wristband, and obviously, they are too big to fit the wristband rule (goes more than 3" from the wrist).

By if this sleeve were attached to his undershirt, it would be legal without question.  So the kids ask (fairly, I think), "How is this different than wearing a long sleeve shirt?"  My answer is, "then wear a long sleeve shirt", but should that HAVE to be the answer?

Of course, I was told this week by an SEC strength coach (NOT Georgia) that he has players that wear these in white, and then line the inside with white double stick tape.  Truth comes out in coaching clinincs.

[busman]

I thought it was football, but with it's name I wasn't sure if maybe it was basketball or golf (as in Shooter McGavin).  I kind of go with your kids on this one - what's the difference in it and a long sleeve shirt.  I don't think of it as an adornment, particularly on artifical turf. 

[Atlanta Blue]

I thought it was football, but with it's name I wasn't sure if maybe it was basketball or golf (as in Shooter McGavin).  I kind of go with your kids on this one - what's the difference in it and a long sleeve shirt.  I don't think of it as an adornment, particularly on artifical turf. 

The name (and original use) did come from basketball, but UnderArmour is now selling it for other sports.

Golf never even occured to me.  As a USGA golf official, I would have no problem with it.

My current position to my players that want to wear them:

1. Personally, I see no purpose, and think you are wasting your money.
2. If you want to wear them, go ahead, but if an official tells you to remove them, you're only response is "yes, sir", and I don't want to hear about it.  I will not discuss it with the officials on your behalf unless the GHSA officially declares them legal.

[AlUpstateNY]

A personal observation.  It seems the rule prohibiting ALL "uniform adornments" covers everything other than, "One  unmarked moisture absorbing white towel..... and "moisture absorbing sweatbands, when worn on the wrist..... (NF: 1-5-3-k) and that took all the guess work away from whether an infinite number of creative ideas that athletes and corporate marketeers could conjur up as possible exceptions. 

I don't think any official enjoys being placed in the role of "fashion police" and the rule makers tried to give us the opportunity to avoid being sucked into a never ending series of dopey discussions dealing with an unending variety of creative exceptions.  The rule defines 2 exceptions to everything else in the universe being prohibited.  Why, on earth, would we want to be any part of dealing with the next potential exception?  Why would we want to be sucked into explaining why this shooter sleve is, or is not, the same as a long sleeve shirt?

It doesn't take a great imagination to expect the next step in the predictable evolution of the shooter sleeve, will be someone adding a picture, or perhaps some words or symbols to their sleeve, or wearing it in a color different from their uniform colors, which may or may not mean whatever they want it to mean to whomever they are trying to communicate with, and a new discussion starts.  And the beat goes on, and on, and on.

Conversely, answering the first question, as to whether it complys with NF: 1-5-3-k, as simply "NO", seems so much simpler and stops a rash of absolute BS, nobody in their right mind wants to deal with. The rule makers went out of their way to "keep it simple", why does anybody want to make it complicated?

[TampaSteve]

Atl:
Those, "Iverson sleeves", have been deemed illegal in FL.

[skip1]

I believe that we should go to the NFHS with this question. More and more teams are playing on turf and this is a way to stop burns. I will bring it up when we have our state interpretation meeting. I wonder if it would still be a problem if it didn't have the logo on it?

[HLinNC]

I wonder if it would still be a problem if it didn't have the logo on it?

Maybe or maybe not.  But one way to make sure it would not  would be for UA or Nike or whoever to sign a sponsorship w/NFHS

[30 ft man]

I'm trying to get my chain crew briefed before a game,but I do know that "iverson sleeves" are illegal unless attached to a shirt--kids know this,along w/ bicep bands,however,coaching staffs SEE all this being put on,and wont say a word to THIER PLAYERS!!!!....inmates run the asylum

[Atlanta Blue]

I'm trying to get my chain crew briefed before a game,but I do know that "iverson sleeves" are illegal unless attached to a shirt-

In which state?  As you can see, this is not an universally held opinion.

Some states have made a definitive ruling (on both sides), others have not made any publicly held ruling.

-kids know this,

Obviously they don't, as officials (and state associations) cannot agree!

along w/ bicep bands,

Yes, those are illegal, and we do not allow our players to wear them.  However, the next official that I see make a player remove them will be the first.

however,coaching staffs SEE all this being put on,and wont say a word to THIER PLAYERS!!!!....inmates run the asylum

Which is why I am looking for a definitive answer now.  Our players will NOT wear something which we have told them is illegal.

You must be working in the wrong asylum.  Ours is still run by the coaches.

[AlUpstateNY]

This topic is a great example of how and why the football world works better, when coaches and officials work together to manage and supervise a great game played by children.  It's a basic part of human nature for those healthy, normal children to always and continually "push the envelope", sometimes about silly things, sometimes about things that can cause real concerns.

When adult supervisors, each responsible for their own segment of the football world, are in agreement about something, either seemingly silly or actually important, there just seems to be widespread recognition of that agreement and a lot less annoying envelope pushing.

[GAHSUMPIRE]

Blue, as far as I know, GHSA has not made a definitive statement on those sleeves one way or the other. I do know that last year our association decided that we were not making players remove them as long as they were not altered. The argument was made that they were not much different than the sleeves with the play sheets in them, and those have been allowed, so these are as well. (Not saying I agree with that logic, just saying that was the rationale that was used).

"along w/ bicep bands,

Yes, those are illegal, and we do not allow our players to wear them.  However, the next official that I see make a player remove them will be the first."

I will disagree with you on that. We had to ask players to remove them several times.  Personally, I don't see the point in wearing them at the high school level- they are not allowed to be paid to wear them to advertise, and MOST of the players that do wear them don't have biceps worth drawing attention to anyway.

Good luck this season. Perhaps I'll see you at the clinic.

[30 ft man]

I work in Florida,and homey dont play dat!!!!! dont like fashion show football anyway--shows lack of respect

[30 ft man]

anyway,whats the big issue w/ turf burn?? USE ATHLETIC TAPE OR  LEGAL ELBOW PADDING

[Atlanta Blue]

"along w/ bicep bands,

Yes, those are illegal, and we do not allow our players to wear them.  However, the next official that I see make a player remove them will be the first."

I will disagree with you on that. We had to ask players to remove them several times.  Personally, I don't see the point in wearing them at the high school level- they are not allowed to be paid to wear them to advertise, and MOST of the players that do wear them don't have biceps worth drawing attention to anyway.

Wow, we have never had any official in any association ask our opponents to remove them, unless they did it so quietly and so inconspicuously that we didn't see it.  And there are PLENTY of games where the bands were they throughout the game.

Personally, I dont care if kids wear them, they sure aren't going to help them in any way, so you will never hear us complain about them.  But our kids will not wear them in a game.

Good luck this season. Perhaps I'll see you at the clinic.

I will be at the June 19th clinic.  Can't miss me, I'll be hanging around.  Be sure to say something.

anyway,whats the big issue w/ turf burn?? USE ATHLETIC TAPE OR  LEGAL ELBOW PADDING

Spoken by one who has never had turf burn, apparently! 

But athletic tape wrapped all up and down your forearms?  And I'm looking for a definitive ruling that says if these are or not the equivilent of "legal padding".  So far, I have gotten numerous answers from different states.  I also had someone on the NFHS Rules Committee tell me they ARE legal, but recognizing that some states have said they are not.

[bama_stripes]

Alabama would allow this as it's intended to protect injuries.

Bicep bands or any other "look at me" stuff is a definite no-no.  We make 'em take it off.

[AlUpstateNY]

If turf burn is a concern, there's always long sleeve jerseys.  If NFHS wants to expand the exceptions included in 1-5-3-k to include separate arm coverings, they certainly have the ability to do so and eliminate any confusion.

[Canned Heat]

I plan on following up on this at our upcoming meeting....as there are a boatload of manufacturer's options coming out of the woodwork geared toward "protection" rather than mentioning enhanced grip on the football.

If those sleeves that are shown in the pic are tucked all the way up under the pads and resemble a long sleeve shirt, I can't imagine they'll be deemed illegal. If the beef is over the UA logo....that's a bit ridiculous, because just about every kid at every youth and HS level has a Nike, UA, Reebeok or otherwise logo adorned on the shoes, socks, or legally worn wristband/"cheat sheet" wristbands, after-market chinstraps, clear shields, etc....that all comply.

Being the owner of a long sleeve UA shirt with the same/similar material for golfing in cold climates, I wouldn't want my kids wearing it because the material is incredibly slick and could lead to ball handling issues (aka Peterson's Syndrome). If it's modified in ANY way...you already have your answer.

There are more and more artificial turf fields here in WI every year and alot of the teams utilize the "second skin" adhesive pads to reduce turf burn. http://www.ithacasports.com/spblkit.html

May be a better alternative for you, coach.

[AlUpstateNY]

You've hit the nail on the head, "there are a boatload of manufacturer's options coming out of the woodwork geared toward "protection" rather than mentioning enhanced grip on the football." and it's aboat the size of an aircraft carrier.  If you want to deal with each of these 'inventions" as they become available, knock yourself out.

I find the simple reference of, "ifhatever the player wants to wear is a; unmarked moisture-absorbing white towel....(NF:1-5-3-a-3-a) or Moisture-absorbing sweatband when worn on the wrist beginning at the base of the thumb and extending no more than 3 inches towards the elbow", I've got no problem.  If it's something else, then he has to choose between wearing it, or playing, because he can't do both.