Clock on Snap or Wind

[bjfb]

4th down and 10 yards at the 50, K punts to R. At the snap a K player is illegally in motion. R properly signals
for a fair catch and completes the catch at the 20 yard line. R choses to accept the foul and have K re-kick after
enforcement of the penalty.

Does the clock start on the wind or snap?

There is a similiar case play and that answer is to start on the snap. Some here in SC believe it should be the wind.

[AlUpstateNY]

Why did the clock stop?  Seems like it stopped for the FC. NF: 3-5-3-j, "The clock will start with the snap.....if the clock was stopped because: (j) A Fair Catch is made."

[bjfb]

I don't disagree with you, it seems we have some that say it stops to administer the penalty and
since it was presumably running on the play (although the question does not specify that) it reverts back to the status
it was.

[LS4a]

I think you can support starting on the ready based on 3-4-2.

I guess it come down to why did the clock stop? Was it for the fair catch or for the penalty administration?

If you're in SC you'd better ask Bruce. 

[LS4a]

Just to tack on a follow up...

What if you changed the play and had A fake the punt and run for a touchdown? When does the clock start?

I don't care if it's on the snap on the ready. I can see reasoning for either. I do think it should be consistent between these two plays.

[AlUpstateNY]

I think you can support starting on the ready based on 3-4-2. I guess it come down to why did the clock stop? Was it for the fair catch or for the penalty administration?

The above rule quote, regarding clock stoppage is from the 2009 Rule Book (Haven't received the 2010 book yet, so the reference number may be off)

There doesn't seem to be any question that, by rule, the clock stops when a Fair Catch is made.  Rule 3, section 4 (2009 book) clearly states, " the clock shall start with the RFP signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3-4-3 or an untimed down."

Reason "J" in 3-4-3 (2009 book) specifies "A fair catch is made."

[LS4a]

It is 3-4-2 this year... I was just going from memory and as I re-read the rule I don't see any way for is to be on the ready.

The action that caused the down to end (the fair catch) also caused the clock stop...

[bama_stripes]

When FED changed the timing rules to allow the clock to remain stopped after a kick or COP, one of the reasons given was to allow the teams time to change from offense/special teams to defense (and vice versa).

Since the special teams are on the field for this play, it makes sense that the clock would be held until the snap.

[30 ft man]

what was clock status @ snap???

[Ken-PA]

Don't think the status of the clock at the snap of the down in which a live ball foul occurs ever has anything to do with clock status after enforcement.  On the play in question, if there was no fair catch signal and R was tackled in the field of play after catching the kick, the clock would start with the ready after enforcement of the penalty against K.  If R declines, then the clock starts on the snap because it is a new series after the kick.  Same play as above except R runs out of bounds, then the clock starts with the snap as the out of bounds is the reason for stopping the clock.

[TampaSteve]

The above rule quote, regarding clock stoppage is from the 2009 Rule Book (Haven't received the 2010 book yet, so the reference number may be off)

There doesn't seem to be any question that, by rule, the clock stops when a Fair Catch is made.  Rule 3, section 4 (2009 book) clearly states, " the clock shall start with the RFP signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3-4-3 or an untimed down."

Reason "J" in 3-4-3 (2009 book) specifies "A fair catch is made."

Always go with you Al, but we're re-playing a down, and since the ball did not go to EZ, whatever the clock status was on the prior 4th down (be it on the RFP or snap) is what it will be on the re-played 4th.
Oh and for extra credit, the ball position will be stepped off -because we're previous spot, and placed on the same hash or position is was on the field.

[Ken-PA]

For those of you that refer to the status of the clock on the previous down, what is your rule reference?

The 2010 Rules are unchanged on this matter.  Rule 3-4-2b states:

The clock shall start with the ready-to-play signal on a down beginning with a snap if the clock was stopped for any reason other than specified in Rule 3 -4-3 or an untimed down because the ball has become dead following any foul provided:
   1. These has been no charged time-out during the dead ball interval.
   2. The down is not an extension of a period or try.
   3. The action which caused the down to end did not also cause the clock to be stopped/

The status of the clock on the previous down has nothing to do with anything.

[VALJ]

Just to tack on a follow up...

What if you changed the play and had A fake the punt and run for a touchdown? When does the clock start?

Just to touch on the follow up LS4a posted, I think in this situation we'd start on the ready as well.  3-4-2 says it starts on the ready for any reason other then those specified in 3-4-3 (as Ken notes), and the clock stopping for a score is referenced in 3-4-4.  So, if we're replaying a down that ends in a TD, the clock will start on the ready, correct? 

As you may remember, I'm moving to R this year, and I'm trying really hard to pay attention to penalty enforcements, and to starting the clock.

[KFox1979]

what was clock status @ snap???

Why would that matter?  It was a live ball foul, not a dead ball foul.  The status of the clock at the snap would only effect timing after enforcement of a dead ball foul prior to the snap.  Because this is a live ball foul the action that stopped the clock is the key to timing.

[Ref1986]

Just to touch on the follow up LS4a posted, I think in this situation we'd start on the ready as well.  3-4-2 says it starts on the ready for any reason other then those specified in 3-4-3 (as Ken notes), and the clock stopping for a score is referenced in 3-4-4.  So, if we're replaying a down that ends in a TD, the clock will start on the ready, correct?  

No, because of 3-4-3(d): The ball becomes dead behind the goal line.

If the down ended with a TD (or successful try or FG or safety), the ball became dead behind a goal line. So if the down is to be replayed, clock on the snap.

[VALJ]

Completely overlooked that part of 3-4-3.  Thanks.

Worst part is, I know that we've been starting on the snap for years - as a LJ, I've been the one telling the R "played ended in the end zone; on the snap."   

[stripes1313]

4th down and 10 yards at the 50, K punts to R. At the snap a K player is illegally in motion. R properly signals
for a fair catch and completes the catch at the 20 yard line. R choses to accept the foul and have K re-kick after
enforcement of the penalty.

Does the clock start on the wind or snap?

There is a similiar case play and that answer is to start on the snap. Some here in SC believe it should be the wind.

I know a lot of people out there don't rely too much on Redding, 'cause they feel there are too many errors in the book, but beside that what is different here?

On 4th down K punts and is flagged for holding as the kick is made. The ball is caught by R2 who is tackled inbounds. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the clock will start on the ready since it was stopped for the penalty and there is no major stopper. If the penalty is declined, the clock will start on the snap, since B is awarded a new series. (paraphrased Redding 2010 page 83 example 7-3)

To me, it's not what caused the clock to stop at the end of the down, it is what was the clock doing at the start of the down, was it running or did it start on the snap. If it was running revert back, enforce penalty, wind clock so it is running for the snap, if it was stopped and started on the snap, then enforce the penalty and let it start on the snap.

[VALJ]

To me, it's not what caused the clock to stop at the end of the down, it is what was the clock doing at the start of the down, was it running or did it start on the snap. If it was running revert back, enforce penalty, wind clock so it is running for the snap, if it was stopped and started on the snap, then enforce the penalty and let it start on the snap.

Not for NFHS - whether the clock was running at the snap has nothing to do with whether the clock will run.  Redding specifically states on page 82 of the 2008 book (I haven't gotten my copy of 2010 yet):

"On a scrimmage down, the clock starts on either the ready for play or the snap.  In most cases, the reason for stopping the clock determines when it starts.  On occasion, an event which occurs after the clock is stopped may dictate when it starts.  The rule of thumb is the clock starts on the ready.  However, there are several situations that call for the clock to start on the snap."

He goes on to list what he calls the "major" clockstoppers, which make the clock start on the snap, and the minor clockstoppers, which cause the clock to start on the ready.  The status of the clock at the beginning of previous play has nothing whatsoever to do with the status of the clock for the upcoming play.

[stripes1313]

Not for NFHS - whether the clock was running at the snap has nothing to do with whether the clock will run.  Redding specifically states on page 82 of the 2008 book (I haven't gotten my copy of 2010 yet):

"On a scrimmage down, the clock starts on either the ready for play or the snap.  In most cases, the reason for stopping the clock determines when it starts.  On occasion, an event which occurs after the clock is stopped may dictate when it starts.  The rule of thumb is the clock starts on the ready.  However, there are several situations that call for the clock to start on the snap."

He goes on to list what he calls the "major" clockstoppers, which make the clock start on the snap, and the minor clockstoppers, which cause the clock to start on the ready.  The status of the clock at the beginning of previous play has nothing whatsoever to do with the status of the clock for the upcoming play.

Okay, then how do you reconcile:

On 4th down K punts and is flagged for holding as the kick is made. The ball is caught by R2 who is tackled inbounds. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the clock will start on the ready since it was stopped for the penalty and there is no major stopper. If the penalty is declined, the clock will start on the snap, since B is awarded a new series. (paraphrased Redding 2010 page 83 example 7-3) which comes from Redding 2010.

Note the Bold

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Okay, then how do you reconcile:

On 4th down K punts and is flagged for holding as the kick is made. The ball is caught by R2 who is tackled inbounds. RULING: If the penalty is accepted, the clock will start on the ready since it was stopped for the penalty and there is no major stopper. If the penalty is declined, the clock will start on the snap, since B is awarded a new series. (paraphrased Redding 2010 page 83 example 7-3) which comes from Redding 2010.

Note the Bold

stripes, I'm not seeing anything in there that refers to what the clock was doing at the start of the 4th down play.

If I'm understanding you correctly (and please tell me if I'm not), you've been saying that when the clock starts on the next play after the punt/penalty depends partially on what happened on the previous (3rd down) play. If that's what you mean, I'm afraid it's incorrect.

For any play (other than special cases like free kicks and tries), when the clock starts depends only upon why the clock stopped at the end of the previous play. If it was a "major" stopper (e.g. incomplete pass, ball dead in end zone, new series for B), then we're going on the snap. If it was only a "minor" stopper (e.g. penalty, new series for A), we're going on the ready. The referee can, by rule, override this in the case of a foul designed to conserve/consume time, but these are rare.

[stripes1313]

I think this is a good thread, I think I got it now. What I was missing in the Redding example was Reddings minor stopper of the dead ball following any penalty except a delay of game. In the post the 4th down play (FC) would be a change of possession, major stopper, clock starts on the snap. Then if the penalty is accepted, the 4th down is actually ending with an accepted penalty (minor stopper), and we're going to replay the down, the clock starts on the ready for play.

So back to the original post, accept penalty, wind, decline penalty on the snap. So maybe the SC guys need to go through the AH HAAAAAAAAAAA moment I just went through.

Thanks Roamin'

[blandis]

A simpler way to remember it all: It starts on the chop if no change of possession and it stayed in bounds.