Forward pass following muffed punt

[RZStripes]

Hi all, I'm a first-time official this season making my first ever pass through the rule book and case book. One case caught my eye and I wanted to ask about it.

2010 case book 5.1.3 Situation C (b):

Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone and R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3.

Case book Ruling: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for K. The pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40 yard line.

My thought: With no other definite information, this ruling makes sense to me. Logically, however, I think I see a problem. Given the fact that K is at least originally attempting to punt, I would expect more than the 5 eligible K players to be beyond the neutral zone, meaning an ineligible receiver downfield penalty. Maybe I'm missing something, but assuming there are linemen downfield, am I right that this would be the correct call?

Follow up: what would the ruling/enforcement be here, assuming both forward pass interference on R and ineligible receiver downfield on K? There is a double foul, and there had not been a change of team possession. Therefore, under 10-2-1a, I believe the penalties cancel and the down is replayed; fourth and 10 for K on their own 45 yard line.

It's a confusing situation (and I imagine pretty unlikely to occur), and particularly given a less-than-solid handle on the rules at this point, I think there's a good chance I have it all wrong. I'd appreciate your input, and I look forward to being a part of this community here.

[Atlanta Blue]

My thought: With no other definite information, this ruling makes sense to me.

It should!

Logically, however, I think I see a problem. Given the fact that K is at least originally attempting to punt, I would expect more than the 5 eligible K players to be beyond the neutral zone, meaning an ineligible receiver downfield penalty.

Assuming facts not in evidence!  But there certainly is the possibility that there are ineligible receivers downfield.

Maybe I'm missing something, but assuming there are linemen downfield, am I right that this would be the correct call?

Yes.

Follow up: what would the ruling/enforcement be here, assuming both forward pass interference on R and ineligible receiver downfield on K? There is a double foul, and there had not been a change of team possession. Therefore, under 10-2-1a, I believe the penalties cancel and the down is replayed; fourth and 10 for K on their own 45 yard line.

That's it.

[LAZebra]

In spite of your humility, you appear to have a better grasp on the rules than the average newbie and more than most exceptional young officials.  You are thinking like an official already.  Welcome to the most wonderful avocation on the planet.

[RZStripes]

Thanks guys, I guess I'm getting a better hang of this than I realized I was. I played high school football in Texas but am now officiating in North Carolina, so I tend to second guess myself more given that I have practically zero experience playing or really even watching NFHS rules. Regardless, I'm really looking forward to hitting the field soon!

[With_Two_Flakes]

The first step to being a good official is knowing what you don't know.

Perhaps it is actually a help to you that having played NCAA Rules and now you are having to officiate NFHS Rules, you won't assume you know anything and will check first.

[Watson]

Same scenario, no interference and no ineligibles downfield. Whose ball is it if the pass is incomplete?

[mnmjg]

It's not obvious to me that 10-2-1a overrides 5-1-3f.  

5-1-3f states that a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended.

I'm not saying that 5-1-3f definitely overrides normal penalty enforcement situations for team K fouls.  However, rule 5-1-3f does not address fouls by team K that occur after the kick ends, so it can't be said for certain how the rulesmakers want these handled.

[RZStripes]

The first step to being a good official is knowing what you don't know.

Perhaps it is actually a help to you that having played NCAA Rules and now you are having to officiate NFHS Rules, you won't assume you know anything and will check first.

Hadn't thought about that, you may be right. Regardless, I think I'm the kind of guy who would be studying this rule book pretty closely whether it was NCAA or NFHS. I don't like going into a situation where I'm supposed to be an authority unless I know the thing I'm supposed to be the authority on as well as I possibly can. Since it's going to be really hard to be good at mechanics at the beginning with no experience, I'd like to at least know the rules as well as I possibly can.

Same scenario, no interference and no ineligibles downfield. Whose ball is it if the pass is incomplete?

This scenario actually came up as a discussion question in our local clinic last night. I believe the conclusion we came to was 1st and 10 for K at the previous spot.

Because R touched a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, a new series is awarded to whichever team has possession at the end of the down. If K recovers and throws an incomplete pass, they had possession and would be awarded the new series.

It's not obvious to me that 10-2-1a overrides 5-1-3f. 

5-1-3f states that a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended.

I'm not saying that 5-1-3f definitely overrides normal penalty enforcement situations for team K fouls.  However, rule 5-1-3f does not address fouls by team K that occur after the kick ends, so it can't be said for certain how the rulesmakers want these handled.

That's a really good observation. But if 10-2-1A doesn't override 5-1-3f, then how else would you handle the double foul situation? With my current knowledge I can't even begin to think of how else you'd handle the double foul.

[VALJ]

I'm not saying that 5-1-3f definitely overrides normal penalty enforcement situations for team K fouls.  However, rule 5-1-3f does not address fouls by team K that occur after the kick ends, so it can't be said for certain how the rulesmakers want these handled.

It's always dangerous to extrapolate from one situation to another, but here goes:

5-1-3a says that a new series is awarded to A if they possess the ball on or beyond the line to gain at the end of the play, and I think we can all agree that in the event of a double foul, we replay the down and disregard 5-1-3a.  Why would 10-2-1a take precedence over 5-1-3a and not 5-1-3f?

I don't see any way that we can't have a double foul if we end up with both ineligible(s) downfield and DPI.  All fouls are player fouls (as opposed to USC or nonplayer fouls), and there's no COP.  Seems to me that would be a pretty cut-and-dried double foul, replay the down to me.

[KFox1979]

Follow up: what would the ruling/enforcement be here, assuming both forward pass interference on R and ineligible receiver downfield on K? There is a double foul, and there had not been a change of team possession. Therefore, under 10-2-1a, I believe the penalties cancel and the down is replayed; fourth and 10 for K on their own 45 yard line.

Couldn't K decline the DPI? Then it wouldn't be a double foul, so K would be awarded a new set of downs 1&10 from the 40?  Is this possible?

[Welpe]

No they couldn't decline the DPI because there was never a change of possession.  The more I see this situation discussed, the more I'm glad the NCAA treats scrimmage kicks the way they do.

[mnmjg]

So if we have a foul with loss of down as part of the penalty, what would we do?  I think the applicable rules are 5-2-5f and 5-2-5g.  Assume that K commits an OPI foul during the pass.  Is it 1/10 for K or for R after marking off the 15 yard penalty?

[VALJ]

KFox - they couldn't decline the DPI, since a double foul automatically results in the down being replayed, with no options given to either team to decline the other team's foul.

mnmjg - I would think that if there is a foul only by K, and the foul is accepted, normal enforcement procedures would apply.  There's been no change of possession, and the foul is during a loose ball play, so the enforcement is a fifteen yard penalty from the previous spot.  The LOD provision means that it's R's ball once the penalty is marked off.

If the K commits OPI and R commits a live-ball player foul, they penalties offset and we replay the down.

[30 ft man]

ok RZ,here's my advice---STUDY THE NFHS/NCAA Rule differences book--very helpful

[RZStripes]

mnmjg - I would think that if there is a foul only by K, and the foul is accepted, normal enforcement procedures would apply.  There's been no change of possession, and the foul is during a loose ball play, so the enforcement is a fifteen yard penalty from the previous spot.  The LOD provision means that it's R's ball once the penalty is marked off.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Remember what 5-1-3f states - that a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended.

I don't think the ineligible man downfield penalty would meet the stipulation of being a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended. As soon as K recovers after the muff they have earned their new series, right? In my mind it would have to be K's ball 1st & 10, with the yardage penalty stepped off. You can't award a new series and have a LOD, so I think you'd have to ignore the LOD provision for this one.

ok RZ,here's my advice---STUDY THE NFHS/NCAA Rule differences book--very helpful

Great idea. I'm guessing most officials end up studying that book to go the other way, but I think it would probably be very helpful for me. Thanks. Although, to be honest, having only played under NCAA but never officiated it, I don't think I'd have any idea how to handle this under those rules either.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

So if we have a foul with loss of down as part of the penalty, what would we do?  I think the applicable rules are 5-2-5f and 5-2-5g.  Assume that K commits an OPI foul during the pass.  Is it 1/10 for K or for R after marking off the 15 yard penalty?

All 5-2-5 tells you is that a series of downs has come to an end; it doesn't tell you who will put the ball in play for the next series.

The only rules that tell you who starts a new series are 5-1-3 and 5-2-6. I believe 5-2-6 controls here, since the heading for 5-2 is "Down and Possession After Penalty."

5-2-6 says "The first down is awarded to the team in possession when the foul occurs unless declining the penalty leaves the other team in possession or, as in (c) and (f), accepting or declining the penalty leaves the other team in possession after fourth down. (See 5-2-5c,f)"

The "unless" conditions don't apply, so you must award the first down to K.

SPECULATION:
What's interesting is that I would bet money that the "f" in that exception is supposed to be "g" - 5-2-5f doesn't refer to fourth downs, but 5-2-5g does. I'm guessing that  at one time 5-2-5 only went up to "f" and when another item was added, someone forgot to update 5-2-6 appropriately. If the "unless" part referred to 5-2-5g, then you have a reason to award R the first down.

[VALJ]

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Remember what 5-1-3f states - that a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended.

I don't think the ineligible man downfield penalty would meet the stipulation of being a non-PSK foul that occurred before the kick ended. As soon as K recovers after the muff they have earned their new series, right? In my mind it would have to be K's ball 1st & 10, with the yardage penalty stepped off. You can't award a new series and have a LOD, so I think you'd have to ignore the LOD provision for this one.

That true, what 5-1-3f states, and that would definitely apply without the foul occurring.  But, 10-3-1b defines a loose ball play as action during a legal forward pass, which is what we have.  Since possession hasn't changed during the down, the pass is legal.  Then 10-4-2b specifies that the basic spot is the previous spot for a foul that occurs during a loose ball play, as defined in 10-3-1 (except for roughing the passer).  

I'll also reference 5-2-2: "When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession...the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement unless it is a post-scrimmage kick foul.  The number of the next down is the same as that of the down  during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or a loss of down."

So - we've got a foul during a loose ball play, with no change of possession.  I definitely agree that (in the case on an ineligible downfield) that the ball still belongs to K for the next snap.  I just have a hard time seeing how you can mark off 5 yards and still give K a first and ten after enforcement of the penalty.

In the case of OPI, I still think R will be the next to snap the ball.  Go to the previous spot and mark off the 15 yards.  Back to 5-2-2 for a second: "The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement."  There's been no COP, and K hasn't reached the line to gain, so don't we have to enforce the LOD?  Normally, we'd then replay 4th down, but since OPI has a LOD attached, K loses the right to replay 4th down and the ball goes over to R.  

By the way, RZ, your knowledge of the rulebook is impressive for a rookie

[The Roamin' Umpire]

I'll also reference 5-2-2: "When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession...the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement unless it is a post-scrimmage kick foul.  The number of the next down is the same as that of the down  during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or a loss of down."

So - we've got a foul during a loose ball play, with no change of possession.  I definitely agree that (in the case on an ineligible downfield) that the ball still belongs to K for the next snap.  I just have a hard time seeing how you can mark off 5 yards and still give K a first and ten after enforcement of the penalty.

The hole in your logic falls in that "..." between "possession" and "the ball". Let's fill in the blank:

5-2-2: When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession, and before a receiver is first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone, the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement unless it is a 2-16-2h (post-scrimmage kick) foul.  The number of the next down is the same as that of the down  during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or a loss of down.

The part in red is exactly the situation that we're talking about here, and the part that follows doesn't apply. In the case of OPI by K, 5-2-5f & g tell us that the series has ended. The first sentence of 5-2-6 tells us someone is getting a first and 10. And I believe that the second sentence of 5-2-6 tells us that someone is K. (I also believe that there's a mistake in the exceptions in that second sentence; see my above post.)

[VALJ]

Roamin', nice catch.  That's what I get for looking just for something to support my side.

I'm still hanging my hat on 10-3-1b and 10-4-2b, though. By definition, we have a loose ball foul here, and loose ball (non-PSK) fouls are enforced from the previous spot (since an OPI or ineligible downfield can only happen beyond the NZ.  I'll definitely try to remember to bring this up at our next meeting for input from some older, wiser heads.