Author Topic: Free Kick - moving position of tee  (Read 9598 times)

GoGoGo

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Free Kick - moving position of tee
« on: September 16, 2010, 01:22:10 PM »
The L (or BJ) hands the kicker the ball. The kicker lays the ball on the ground beside the kicking tee and goes to his huddle. The kicking teams breaks the huddle and the kicker runs up to the line and grabs the ball and kicking tee and moves the location of the kicking tee from the hash to about the middle of the field.

Is this legal? Why or why not? Rule or case book reference to back up our decision.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 01:28:04 PM by GoGoGo »

ppaltice

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2010, 02:56:37 PM »
Rule 4-3-6b.  The kickers can put the ball in play anywhere between the hash marks.  It is usually a good idea for the L or BJ to ask if the kickers want to kick the ball here.

In any case, even after the RFP, I would let them move the ball as they should have presented the option.

Offline jason

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2010, 04:06:20 PM »
It sure does seem like 6-1-2 makes moving the ball a free kick infraction.  In the past I have called this, but so many teams do what the original post mentions that it almost seems like the rule should be re-written.

Once designated, K must kick from that spot.

Once designated? ???

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2010, 10:07:42 PM »
Sorry, I am traveling and don't have my rule book with me, but if this is actually a foul, and I am not convinced it is, what purpose is served by making this call?

There are plenty of examples where a foul is committed, and is not called because it either has no impact, or does not give an unfair advantage. (Holding on the left tackle on a sweep around the right end for example)

I go back to the philosophy of "Just because we can, doesn't mean we should". I just think calling this would cause more problems than it solves.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 09:04:32 AM by GAHSUMPIRE »

GoGoGo

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2010, 06:30:31 AM »
The official did ask him where he wanted the ball placed and he still moved it. They why do we ask them where they want the ball placed in the first place? I see this as a disadvantage because K can mover the ball and cause R to re-adjust and while R is re-adjusting K can kick the ball quickly.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 06:33:51 AM by GoGoGo »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2010, 06:56:50 AM »
The problem is the rule says "once designated", and then never defines what it means.  We had a team do this last week:  they would set the tee, see how we lined up, and then move the tee.  When I asked about "once designated" I was told they would let him move it before the RFP, but not after.

Once R knows this game is being played, it's easily handled: our 5 deep guys stood in a group around the 15 until the RFP was blown, and then moved to the spots where we wanted them.

Offline Curious

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2010, 09:49:36 AM »
The problem is the rule says "once designated", and then never defines what it means.  We had a team do this last week:  they would set the tee, see how we lined up, and then move the tee.  When I asked about "once designated" I was told they would let him move it before the RFP, but not after.

Once R knows this game is being played, it's easily handled: our 5 deep guys stood in a group around the 15 until the RFP was blown, and then moved to the spots where we wanted them.

I bet they were surprised any coach even knew about "once designated"; but actually, I think your officials gave you a pretty good response: "before RFP, but not after".  Sounds reasonable to me.  After the RFP, I think 6-1-2 should be enforced (if not, after how many times would we deem it excessive?).  RFP makes it clean (might want to give K one "warning").

This (free kick infraction), AB, might be another candidate for the "bring back 'illegal procedure' campaign"! 

Offline lawdog

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2010, 11:26:41 AM »
Agree its not clear, but if they haven't put the ball on the tee I'd be hard pressed to say they've designated a spot that's for sure.  I do think the RFP distinction is a pretty good cut off, actually as soon as he raises his hand and asks for the RFP signal I think he's done.  No advantage to moving around before the ready as the R has time to adjust if the RFP hasn't been given so there is no disadvantage.  Really have to be nitpicking to call this penalty! 

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2010, 12:12:48 PM »
Sorry, I am traveling and don't have my rule book with me, but if this is actually a foul, and I am not convinced it is, what purpose is served by making this call?
It's obvious that the rule was implemented to keep K from moving the tee all over the field in an attempt to catch R out of position.  The easy way to prevent invoking this rule is to have the official with the kicker (the U in our mechanics) hold onto the ball and ask where the kicker wants to kick from.  The answer, once given, becomes the "designated" kicking spot and can't be moved.

GoGoGo

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2010, 09:25:44 AM »
Rule 4-3-6 and 4-3-7 sums it up and I don't think it leaves any grey area.

Before the ready-for-play signal, A may designate the spot from
which the ball is put in play anywhere between the inbounds lines:
a. For a try.
b. For a kickoff.
c. Following a safety.
d. Following a fair catch.
e. Following an awarded fair catch.
f. Following a touchback.
g. For the start of each series using an overtime procedure.
ART. 7 . . . When a team may designate the spot along the proper yard line
from which the ball is to be put in play, it shall have the same privilege if the down
is to be replayed or a dead-ball foul occurs.


Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2010, 10:26:22 AM »
Rule 4-3-6 and 4-3-7 sums it up and I don't think it leaves any grey area.

No one is arguing about what spot they can choose.  The grey area comes from 6-1-2:

"Once designated, K must kick from that spot."

What is DESIGNATED?  Is it setting down the ball and then going to the huddle?  Is it setting the tee on the ground?  Is it putting the ball on the tee?  If he does any of these things prior to the RFP, has he DESIGNATED the spot, or can he still move?

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2010, 01:14:49 PM »
"Once designated, K must kick from that spot."

What is DESIGNATED?  Is it setting down the ball and then going to the huddle?  Is it setting the tee on the ground?  Is it putting the ball on the tee?  If he does any of these things prior to the RFP, has he DESIGNATED the spot, or can he still move?
All those are indefinite designations (although teeing-up the ball gives you a pretty strong case for "designating the spot of the kick").  Getting a verbal commitment of where he's going to kick from is a definite designation and not subject to interpretation.  Seeing as an official is standing there with the kicker anyway, it is fairly easy to implement asking the question into the normal free-kick mechanics.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2010, 01:46:27 PM »
Getting a verbal commitment of where he's going to kick from is a definite designation and not subject to interpretation.  Seeing as an official is standing there with the kicker anyway, it is fairly easy to implement asking the question into the normal free-kick mechanics.

I agree, if the official asks him where he wants it and he says, "left hash", then that should be it.  But if the coach then yells to him, "No, RIGHT hash" before he has teed it up and before the RFP, are you going to make him stick to the left hash?

I think once he has put the ball on the tee, or even set his tee on a spot, then he has DESIGNATED the spot.  Up until then, I really don't care, it's still easy for the receivers to react.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2010, 01:51:01 PM »
Another situation where one rule defines the other.  GoGoGo found it in Rule 4

Quote
Before the ready-for-play signal, A may designate the spot from
which the ball is put in play anywhere between the inbounds lines:
a. For a try.
b. For a kickoff.

This would indicate, to me at least, that K can designate wherever they want until the RFP is blown

ppaltice

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2010, 02:35:37 PM »
Play situation: BJ is waiting for K at the center of the 40.  The BJ does his spiel, counts K and hands K1 the ball.  K1 puts the ball down and huddles with his team as the BJ is leaving the field.  Referee blows the ball ready.  K1 then breaks the huddle, grabs the ball and tee and goes to the spot where he wants to kick the ball, and places the ball on the tee at that location.  At no time did the BJ ask if the center of the 40 was the spot where K wanted to kick the ball.

What do you have?

I say nothing.

Oh, some states are picky about the 1 minute time between TD and KO.  Let's say K stays huddled on the sideline for 1 minute.  BJ puts the ball down on center of the field and goes off without K on the field as per mechanic.  Referee blows the ball ready at 1 minute.  K comes out and moves the ball to a hash mark.

What do you have?

Again, I say nothing.

They get the right to designate the spot where they want to kick the ball.  If the crew did not confirm the location of that spot, then K has not designated the spot.

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 02:36:13 PM »
Yeah, but 6-1-2 pretty much limits them to ONE designation per kick attempt.  They can't designate one spot, then move to another.

And PPaltice, Once the RFP is blown, they do not get to designate a new place.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2010, 02:38:20 PM by Fadamor »

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 04:44:36 PM »
You can play semantics arguments until the cows come home, but the only interpretation of what "designates" actually means, that matters, is the Referee's definintion, as supported by the second sentence of NF: 1-1-6, "The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game."

What a coach might interpret that term to mean is inconsequential, unless it happens to match the referee's interpretation.  Of course if a referee wants to get embroiled in a dueling discussion of what the word might mean, that seems like his choice as well, but simply declaring the ball ready, and keeping the ball wherever the ball was, when it was declared ready, seems like the simplest solution.

We get paid to settle stupid arguments, not contribute to them.

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 07:47:58 AM »
Seems to me that the entire reason for this board is to hash-out the "stupid arguments" BEFORE we're on the field.  That way when we DO take the field and are confronted with that particular situation, we've already discussed and decided how it will be handled.

Or am I way offbase? ???

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2010, 08:00:08 AM »
You can play semantics arguments until the cows come home, but the only interpretation of what "designates" actually means, that matters, is the Referee's definintion, as supported by the second sentence of NF: 1-1-6, "The referee's decisions are final in all matters pertaining to the game."

What a coach might interpret that term to mean is inconsequential, unless it happens to match the referee's interpretation.  Of course if a referee wants to get embroiled in a dueling discussion of what the word might mean, that seems like his choice as well, but simply declaring the ball ready, and keeping the ball wherever the ball was, when it was declared ready, seems like the simplest solution.

We get paid to settle stupid arguments, not contribute to them.

One more truly insightful answer.  "Forget what the rules say, the only thing that matters is what the official says."

While I will admit this is a minor issue of little consequence, supporting your answer with a little more than, "Because I said so" sure would add more to understanding of how the rule should be applied.

Yes, on any given night, "What the official says it is is what it is" is true, regardless of how ridiculous that official's decision might be.  And yes, the coach has no choice but to accept the decision, again, no matter how absurd the ruling might have been by the official.

But that kind of attitude is exactly why the overall quality of HS officiating isn't advancing, and is probably declining, over time.  Too many official's with, "Because i said so", rather than a thorough knowledge of the rules and the ability to explain them.

Whether I agree or disagree with the posters here, at least the vast majority try to elucidate their reasoning, and I appreciate it.  It makes me a better coach.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2010, 10:44:14 AM »
One more truly insightful answer.  "Forget what the rules say, the only thing that matters is what the official says."

While I will admit this is a minor issue of little consequence, supporting your answer with a little more than, "Because I said so" sure would add more to understanding of how the rule should be applied.

Yes, on any given night, "What the official says it is is what it is" is true, regardless of how ridiculous that official's decision might be.  And yes, the coach has no choice but to accept the decision, again, no matter how absurd the ruling might have been by the official.

But that kind of attitude is exactly why the overall quality of HS officiating isn't advancing, and is probably declining, over time.  Too many official's with, "Because i said so", rather than a thorough knowledge of the rules and the ability to explain them.

Whether I agree or disagree with the posters here, at least the vast majority try to elucidate their reasoning, and I appreciate it.  It makes me a better coach.

Wow, you sure added a lot more between points A and B than I intended.  There is absolutely no suggestion about, “Forget what the rules say” related to this question.  Allowing any discussion to slip into an endless argument about semantics, especially on a playing field, rarely produces anything positive or productive.

“Because I said so” is not the objective, and the presumption would be that this would only be an issue when someone, likely beyond the sideline, wanted to make an issue out of it.  It was further presumed, that the referee would simply state his reasoning, end the discussion and direct the game to continue.

Perhaps, in your particular area of operation, “the overall quality of HS officiating isn't advancing, and is probably declining, over time” but that may just as likely be the result of ever increasing unreasonable expectations on the part of local sideline personnel who insist on intruding further into areas beyond their responsibilities than their assigned duties require.

With no practical experience in your area, I can’t opine whether your officials have, “a thorough knowledge of the rules and the ability to explain them”, but by and large my experience suggests that officials in general not only have extensive knowledge of the rules and the ability to explain them, but also exercise extraordinary levels of patience and control, at times, trying to get a word in edgewise in an effort to do so.

ppaltice

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 12:01:59 PM »
I read through AHSAA mechanics and did not see anything regarding how the officials allow a team to designate a spot.  For example, for 5-man on a free kick, BJ is on K's free kick line to assist kicking team in getting into position.  He moves to the kicker, checks the kicking tee, hands ball to kicker and instructs kicker to wait for Referee's RFP.

My point is that if K wants to kick from a position other than the center of the field, that may not get communicated as there are no specific mechanics instructing BJ's to ask K to designate a spot.  The BJ could easily leave the field and R could blow RFP prior to K designating the spot where they want to kick the ball.

The difficulty in penalizing K is that the fault might well lie on the officials and not the team.  If you are 100% certain that K was given the opportunity to designate a spot and that they moved the ball after they designated a spot, then you have a foul.  If K never designated a spot, no foul.

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 12:13:39 PM »
Which brings the subject back to MAKING it a part of the mechanic for the official standing with the kicker.  This is a minor addition and shouldn't give anybody heartburn except for coaches who like their kickers to move the tee all over the place prior to the kick.

Offline lawdog

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 01:45:21 PM »
This thread is (and is getting worse too) a classic example already of over analyzing a hypertechnical rule looking for an infraction.  Is there an advantage gained by K moving the tee a few yards left or right?  Not likely, if not, then why are we worrying about it?  Just because we want to prove we know the rules better than some 17 year old kid kicking off?  Big deal!!! 

Basic officiating philosphies here guys.  1. don't go looking for fouls and 2. don't call it if it doesn't gain an advantage. 

If they start playing games with where the ball is trying to somehow gain some advantage (and really short of maybe an onside when would this really make a huge difference and not let R a chance to see and adjust to it), tell them to knock it off or you might have to flag it. This should never need to go farther than that...

LarryW60

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 10:20:13 PM »
And yet it had become such a problem that the NFHS felt a rule had to be added.  And this rule is about the LAST rule in the rules book that I would describe as "hypertechnical".  It's fairly straightforward: once you say where your choice of kicking spot is located, you can't change it again.

KFox1979

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Re: Free Kick - moving position of tee
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2010, 12:30:14 AM »
You also aren't allowed to send dogs onto the field to make a tackle, but I don't go through that instruction during my normal mechanic.

FWIW I have had dogs make tackles during a game more times than I have had a kicker move a ball from one hash to the other.