Author Topic: LBI  (Read 5114 times)

Offline JugglingReferee

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LBI
« on: October 02, 2010, 09:35:32 AM »
Team A 3D/2 @ A-24.  QB fumbles and an O-lineman dives to recover.  B pushes O-lineman out of the way and recovers himself.

B is running for his glory defensive TD, and the ball is knocked out and it flies into the Team A EZ.  Opposing players are running for the ball and Team A player yanks the B player out of the way by means of a horsecollar tackle.  A then recovers in his own end zone.

Ruling?

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: LBI
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2010, 10:26:59 PM »
Team A 3D/2 @ A-24.  QB fumbles and an O-lineman dives to recover.  B pushes O-lineman out of the way and recovers himself.

B is running for his glory defensive TD, and the ball is knocked out and it flies into the Team A EZ.  Opposing players are running for the ball and Team A player yanks the B player out of the way by means of a horsecollar tackle.  A then recovers in his own end zone.

Ruling?
A has first option as the first non-offending team.
A will want to take the LBI, or B gets the ball at the A10.
B will want to take the LBI, or A gets the ball 1/10 @ A24.
Now you have a dual foul situation. Non-distance fouls such as LBI are treated as offsetting 10-yard infractions in dual-foul situations.
UR still applies, and is unrestricted. Replay the down, 3D/17 at A-9.

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: LBI
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2010, 07:49:55 AM »
A has first option as the first non-offending team.
A will want to take the LBI, or B gets the ball at the A10.
B will want to take the LBI, or A gets the ball 1/10 @ A24.
Now you have a dual foul situation. Non-distance fouls such as LBI are treated as offsetting 10-yard infractions in dual-foul situations.
UR still applies, and is unrestricted. Replay the down, 3D/17 at A-9.

If A doesn't want the LBI, doesn't B get the ball at the A-25?

Do the LBIs really offset, or does the first LBI give A the ball and the second LBI move the PNS to the A-14.  Then the UR takes the ball to the A-1.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: LBI
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2010, 03:36:12 PM »
If A doesn't want the LBI, doesn't B get the ball at the A-25?
8.4.1.a.4:
If an A player fumbles the ball in his own end zone, and while the ball is loose, Team
A commits illegal interference, thus preventing Team B from gaining possession of
the ball in the end zone:
Penalty Team B may accept rouge or a safety touch (1 or 2 points) as applicable
OR
Team B may take possession of the ball as 1st down at the PLS or the 10-yard (10
metre) line
, whichever is closer to the goal line.

and 8.4.1.b.5
If the ball is loose in the Team B end zone, and Team B commits illegal interference, thus
preventing Team A from gaining possession of the ball in the end zone:
Penalty: Team A may take possession of the ball as 1st down at the B 10, or at the PLS
whichever is closer to the B goal line


Quote
Do the LBIs really offset, or does the first LBI give A the ball and the second LBI move the PNS to the A-14.  Then the UR takes the ball to the A-1.

8..6.2.d.5:
If one of the dual fouls is a non-distance foul, it shall be applied as a 10-yard (10 metre)
penalty - e.g., Illegal FP Interference by Team B, less than 15 yds (15 metre) from PLS.

I'd lump LBI into that mix, as that's a POF application (non-distance foul.)

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: LBI
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2010, 06:27:02 PM »
8.4.1.a.4:
If an A player fumbles the ball in his own end zone, and while the ball is loose, Team
A commits illegal interference, thus preventing Team B from gaining possession of
the ball in the end zone:
Penalty Team B may accept rouge or a safety touch (1 or 2 points) as applicable
OR
Team B may take possession of the ball as 1st down at the PLS or the 10-yard (10
metre) line
, whichever is closer to the goal line.

LOL  My bad.  I mis-read my own case.  A LBI via a HC.  The foul is possession at the A-10.  I then applied the 15, but in the wrong direction!  LOL

So then, it's B 1D/G @ A-1, n'est pas?

8..6.2.d.5:
If one of the dual fouls is a non-distance foul, it shall be applied as a 10-yard (10 metre)
penalty - e.g., Illegal FP Interference by Team B, less than 15 yds (15 metre) from PLS.

I'd lump LBI into that mix, as that's a POF application (non-distance foul.)

I would lump LBI into that mix as well.  But I think the first LBI awards possession to A.  The 2nd LBI is enforced as a 10y penalty.  Then the UR.

We'd need to know where the 1st LBI occurred.  Say it was 3y behind the LS.  That's the A-21.  LBI -> "The offense that shall not be named".  UR -> A-1.

I'm not sure that the 1st LBI awards possession to A, and negates the yardage within LBI that A committed.

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: LBI
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2010, 07:42:29 PM »
LOL  My bad.  I mis-read my own case.  A LBI via a HC.  The foul is possession at the A-10.  I then applied the 15, but in the wrong direction!  LOL

So then, it's B 1D/G @ A-1, n'est pas?
If A doesn't accept the other LBI, yes.

Quote
I'm not sure that the 1st LBI awards possession to A, and negates the yardage within LBI that A committed.

It's not the LBI that's awarding possession, but the offsetting penalty application that's negating any changes of possession.
Therefore, since the changes are negated, A cannot get new downs yet must retain the ball.
So all that's left is the UR's point of application.
The PBD is ignored, as it's in the endzone as a result of an illegal play, same with PBH. All that's left is PLS. Back 15 from PLS - is my logic.
PS: D'ya think the Americans reading this are wondering if we've lost our marbles?

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: LBI
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2010, 07:45:18 PM »
Yes re: our marbles.

I gotta come back to the other later....

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: LBI
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 08:34:35 PM »
Yes re: our marbles.

I gotta come back to the other later....

In a women's game this year we had third down (Canadian rules with four downs) and a fumble. Myself and the HL both threw flags for LBI - on different teams.

You can't have one LBI awarding possession,and the other not. Replay the down.

I don't think that changes in your example. Both have to be "equal" and thus, offsetting.

Offline JugglingReferee

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Re: LBI
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 07:39:04 AM »
In a women's game this year we had third down (Canadian rules with four downs) and a fumble. Myself and the HL both threw flags for LBI - on different teams.

You can't have one LBI awarding possession, and the other not. Replay the down.

I don't think that changes in your example. Both have to be "equal" and thus, offsetting.

Reference?

Offline Livin' in the pit

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Re: LBI
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2010, 04:49:03 PM »
The references have already been given - I'd suggest, less than confidently - offsetting non-distance fouls, in a dual-foul situation, are treated as 10-yard penalties.