Author Topic: A hold & B piling on  (Read 5100 times)

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
A hold & B piling on
« on: October 07, 2010, 07:56:18 AM »
3D/6 @ B-18.  A holds BYG, is tackled at the (a) B-14 and (b) B-11, and then B piles on.

State your rulings.

CanuckHL24

  • Guest
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2010, 09:38:15 AM »
I'll take a stab at this on a Thurs a.m. (without the rulebook open)

In (a) assume B accepts holding, we go back 10 to the B 28 DR then up 15 to the
B13 . As Piling on is a dead ball foul, there is no automatic 1D.But since we are repeating
the down we can apply the piling to see if A gets 1D.As they need to get to the 12,
its yards not gained so B 1D at the 13. If B declines the hold, B gets the ball at their own 1 1st down as the piling on is unrestricted and
turnover on downs stands.

In (B) if  B takes the holding ,  back 10 to the A 21 3D repeated. Then we apply the piling on.
This is not a dual foul, so its A ball at the 6 and 1D due to dist gained as we are repeating the down.
If B declines the hold, we go up 15 to the 1 (unrestricted) and B 1D. A doesnt get the 1D for dist gained
due to the dead ball foul.

Am I close?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 09:41:50 AM by CanuckHL24 »

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2010, 09:47:16 AM »
I'll take a stab at this on a Thurs a.m. (without the rulebook open)

In (a) assume B accepts holding, we go back 10 to the B 28 DR then up 15 to the
B13 . As Piling on is a dead ball foul, there is no automatic 1D.But since we are repeating
the down we can apply the piling to see if A gets 1D.As they need to get to the 12,
its yards not gained so B 1D at the 13. If B declines the hold, B gets the ball at their own 1 1st down as the piling on is unrestricted and turnover on downs stands.

Some parts incorrect, some parts correct.

In (B) if  B takes the holding ,  back 10 to the A 21 3D repeated. Then we apply the piling on.
This is not a dual foul, so its A ball at the 6 and 1D due to dist gained as we are repeating the down.
If B declines the hold, we go up 15 to the 1 (unrestricted) and B 1D. A doesnt get the 1D for dist gained
due to the dead ball foul.

No parts correct.

(I never said that the hold was after YG.)

CanuckHL24

  • Guest
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2010, 10:15:37 AM »
OOps - helps if I read it carefully- also a re-think. In (b) if holding accepted, still go back 10
from PLS not PBH to the 28 3rd DR. Apply Piling on (DBF) and its A ball 1D & 10 to go at the B13.
Its an automatic 1D  for A as its not a dual foul and they are still in possession.
If holding declined, B 1D at their own 1 as piling on applied at PBD and its unrestricted.

In (a) My 2nd sentence is wrong. As its not a dual, A gets an automatic 1D at the B13 even though they
havent gained the 12.

Better or still missing something?

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2010, 10:21:09 AM »
OOps - helps if I read it carefully- also a re-think. In (b) if holding accepted, still go back 10
from PLS not PBH to the 28 3rd DR. Apply Piling on (DBF) and its A ball 1D & 10 to go at the B13.
Its an automatic 1D  for A as its not a dual foul and they are still in possession.
If holding declined, B 1D at their own 1 as piling on applied at PBD and its unrestricted.

Almost correct on all accounts.

If the hold is declined, then it's like it never happened, and since Team A gained yards, they get that gain, plus the 15.  So therefore, it's Team A 1D @ the B-1, not Team B.

In (a) My 2nd sentence is wrong. As its not a dual, A gets an automatic 1D at the B13 even though they havent gained the 12.

You're correct that this is not a dual foul.

What is the rule if A fouls and fails to gain yards on their last down?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 10:27:16 AM by JugglingReferee »

CanuckHL24

  • Guest
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2010, 10:55:07 AM »
Ah- right. In (a)  A needs to get to the 12.but only gets to the 14. So if B declines the hold,
B gets the ball on the turnover then apply the P.O. & B ball on the 1.
If B accepts the hold, A gets 3D repeated at the B28 then up 15 for the P.O. so A 3D at the B13?

I was just about to correct myself on the (b) situation before your edit- A has gained yards so keeps
the ball.

This is what happens when you try to do penalty apps at 8;00 in the morning.
I should be better for my High School doubleheader at 4:30 today   :D

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2010, 10:59:08 AM »
I know you don't have your book with you...

It's interesting to note that the book does not give B the option of accepting the penalty if A does not gain yards.

Offline Livin' in the pit

  • *
  • Posts: 677
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2010, 01:31:10 PM »
3D/6 @ B-18.  A holds BYG, is tackled at the (a) B-14 and (b) B-11, and then B piles on.

State your rulings.
I'm gonna go backwards.
in (b) - "B Captain, if you decline the hold, this will give you possession because A failed to make downs, Bbut you'll be 1/10 at your one. Accept the hold, we'll move the ball up five yards from the line of scrimmage, and A retains possession with a new first down."
.... LOGIC: accepting the hold now shifts the UR point of application to the LOS, as a live-ball foul with the attendent first down for defensive UR.
in (a) "B Captain, you will want the hold, or they'll be on your one with a first down. A captain, you will want the UR. We'll go up five yards from the point of scrimmage, A has has the ball with a first down."
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:33:44 PM by Livin' in the pit »

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2010, 05:48:53 PM »
I'm gonna go backwards.
in (b) - "B Captain, if you decline the hold, this will give you possession because A failed to make downs, Bbut you'll be 1/10 at your one. Accept the hold, we'll move the ball up five yards from the line of scrimmage, and A retains possession with a new first down."
.... LOGIC: accepting the hold now shifts the UR point of application to the LOS, as a live-ball foul with the attendent first down for defensive UR.

in (a) "B Captain, you will want the hold, or they'll be on your one with a first down. A captain, you will want the UR. We'll go up five yards from the point of scrimmage, A has has the ball with a first down."

In (a), yards were not gained.  Do you interpret the book to read that accepting the penalty yields the same result as declining the penalty?

Therefore, applying the hold gives LB at PBD.  COP...  Then we apply the UR.... back to the B-1.

Offline Livin' in the pit

  • *
  • Posts: 677
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2010, 06:07:35 PM »
In (a), yards were not gained.  Do you interpret the book to read that accepting the penalty yields the same result as declining the penalty?
Therefore, applying the hold gives LB at PBD.  COP...  Then we apply the UR.... back to the B-1.
Accepting the penalty changes the point of application of the UR which created the dual-foul situation. The hold cannot be applied at PBD, only at PLS, DR (before yards gained) or PBH. As B is the first non-offending team, they decide the point of application. By rule, all succeeding penalties are applied at that point.

The only way to get COP is for B to decline the hold. Then the UR is applied at PBD, back to the B1.

What's confusing this situation, methinks, is the dead-ball UR. Walk through the same points, with the hold, but A fumbles and B recovers... and then B commits UR *after* the change of possession. B would *decline* a hold to retain possession, correct?

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2010, 06:09:33 PM »
I'm not sure if you're saying that I'm confused.  I hope not.  :)

Do you have your book with you?

Offline Livin' in the pit

  • *
  • Posts: 677
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2010, 06:34:50 PM »
Gots da book.

Here's some casebook aids:
This establishes that without a hold, B retains possession with the UR applied.
5-11-3 PLAY: Team A, 3D and 5 on the A 30-yard line, gain 3 yards. B2 is called for piling on.
RULING: Since Team A did not gain yards on the play; Team B takes possession of the ball. The UR by
Team B does not return the possession to Team A since piling on is a dead ball foul occurring after
possession is lost. L15 to B, Team B 1 D at the A 48-yard line. (8-5-11-Note)

This establishes that B has the option of declining a live-ball hold prior to a piling on to determine a point of enforcement.
6-3-17
PLAY: Last play of half. A1 is holding during the play and B1 piles on.
RULING: Not a dual penalty. If Team B declines the holding penalty the half is over and the Team B
penalty is applied on the opening kick-off of 2nd half. If Team B accepts the holding and Team A accepts
the Piling On penalty, the penalties are adjusted at the appropriate spot and another play will take place.
(8-6-3)

This further establishes that B has the option of declining or accepting a live-ball foul prior to a piling on, and thus determining the point of enforcement.
6-3-18
PLAY: Team A is 1 D and 10 their 40-yard line. Team A goes offside and is then chased
back to the Team A 5-yard line where B1 is called for Piling On. RULING: Not a dual penalty. Option to B:
accept the penalty for Team A offside that is balanced by Team B UR at PLS
- Team A 1 D and 10 at the A
50-yard line (after - L10 to B); or decline the penalty and have a 15 yard penalty for piling applied at PBD
that results in Team A 1 D at the Team A 20-yard line. Piling On penalty occurs after the ball is dead. The
Team B UR gives Team A an automatic 1 D since they are still in possession. (8-6-3)

Offline JugglingReferee

  • *
  • Posts: 1055
  • FAN REACTION: +40/-15
  • Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, Θεοῦ Υἱός, Σωτήρ
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2010, 06:37:19 PM »
I'm going to bring this one up with a fellow R.

The rule book clearly states that a hold on 3D and YNG is LB at PBD.

Offline Livin' in the pit

  • *
  • Posts: 677
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-0
Re: A hold & B piling on
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2010, 06:10:11 AM »
I'm going to bring this one up with a fellow R.

The rule book clearly states that a hold on 3D and YNG is LB at PBD.

It does. However, I believe that's because there's no logical reason why any team would not want possession of the ball - ergo, the penalty would invariably be declined.

But again, you raise an interesting point.